Where are we moving to :)

As a small aside, Kashmir, your statistics appear to be from the UK. This discussion was rooted in the USA. Also, the excerpt you quoted made no mention of 'not finding [AA] men attractive' but just on the outcomes of marriage. The 'attraction' bit was conjecture on your part.As has been pointed out [way back in this now totally overblown thread], WHEN asian women 'out-marry', their tendency is to marry white AND YET there area number of USA TV programs which depict AA/BM couples - at a % far beyond that that 'real world' statistics would support. Why? Therein lies the rub.Also, I presume your "~44%" value is the number of South A men that become doctors? It certainly isn't the % of doctors in the US who are South Asian. In fact, I find those stats 'suspect' - one might equally argue that the remaining 56% are working at Dunkin' Donuts, gas stations or motels throughout the US. Are you prepared to sign on to that as well?Lastly, the site\blog you used to 'defend' your position or defame Lavina's post regarding Denzel Washington seems to have be posts from December 2002. Hardly contemporaneous with this discussion.IF you are seeking to press a largely emotionally based point of view, please don't defame the work of others by misrepresenting or twisting it into convuluted shapes just to bolster your point.IF you are amongst your cited "44%" I would suspect that you have an appreciation of and respect for the objective tools of science. Display that.

Who are the writers/producers of the show ? Are they not white people ? Someone earlier hit at whose bias is working out here. White males do not like wf/not w-male pairrings (view outrage over Ian Johnson's "recent" public proposal to a white woman). And, asians are sensitize to the af/wm pairing (which what is really happening in real life - Asian --especially Asian Indians-- don't marry blacks too much). So, if you are a liberal producer and you want to show an i/r relationship, you pick what will cause the least controversy. White males do not care about af/bm relationships and apparently (for now) asians are not threatened by what they know doesn't happen much in reality.

i think that asians should get togetther with black. because why is ithard to find blacks and asians but easyto find whites and asians.tey dont even give us the time to talk to them.

kashmirjatt:This is a response from one of your earlier comments. DR. Daniel Williams, first DR to succesfully perform open heart surgery. DR. Charles Drew invented blood plasma, the different blood types. Dr Ben Carson first DR to successfully seperate siamese twins. These Doctors are world reknown and their legacy lives on through a generation of African American Doctors today. I can go on until infiniti. Research before you stereotype a whole race. This is a Asian website, so I try to keep my topics away from my Black American half, but when I meet people such as you I have to defend. Dare to be different learn, get away from all the dumb stereotypes you see on MTV and BET. Maybe MTV Desi, if anyone watches it

anyone heard of Tina Kim, She has got to be the only funny Asian comedian in the World. Stereotypical, but funny, check this out about Asian and black relationshipshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuXr56o7Xsc&mode=related&search=

Relax,Unfortunately your knowledge of medicine and its innovations seems a bit lacking and skewed. Dr. Williams-who was bi-racial btw-did not conduct the first successful open heart surgery. He repaired a knife wound not in the heart muscle itself, but to the precardium(the outer sac that envelopes the heart). No doctor or medical expert considers that open heart surgery. Also, he wasn't the first to do that either. Henry Dalton conducted the same procedure two years prior. Perhaps you should seek unbiased sources of information while conducting your own "research" rather than relying on the propaganda contained within Black History month texts and pamphlets. It's sad that there are individuals such as yourself who propagate these erroneous stories and create myths as a means of propping up your community.

Now moving on to questioner's post.The statistics are indeed from the UK, but they accurately reflect the marriage trend of the Indian Diaspora worldwide. I am sure I could track down similar studies commissioned in Canada/EU that subtantiate my assertion. The classification of Indians under the Pan-Asian umbrella in America makes it a bit harder to get accurate data. Regardless, I am confident the trend holds true there as well. I won't even bother addressing the attractiveness issue, because people here are quite sensitive and extrapolate racism from honest and frank comments.I am not 'pushing' an emotionally driven set of arguments, rather people such as yourself choose to react in an emotional way when presented with facts that shed a not so flattering light on the AA community.Lastly, you honestly think that comments or data presented from December of 2002 are not, as you put it, contemporaneous in this case? Wow, things quickly become archaic and antiquated in your world. Take your own advice and analyse complex issues in a critical, unemotional, and detached manner, even if the results are difficult to stomach.

While the posting dates may not coincide directly with the airing of this programme & the insuing comments on this blog, the atmosphere and spirit of the discussions are the same.

Well, I see you never heard of the one drop rule. It was law in those days that if you had one drop of black blood you were black. You are a person in denial, so if you do not believe me then to all else in here read the post. KashermiriJatt its you who supports the stereotypes the media places on different races. I have never seen these achievers listed below herald in text books, history books, nor TV. I bet if the commentary was negative, you would support it. Im not saying your stats are inaccurate, but I can vouch for those of us that are mixed with black, starting with myself. Maybe we are a minority amongst minorities, but we exist. Im half, but the world identifies me as a black, which is cool. Ask Tiger Woods, Amerie, Deinise Lawton, Cassie, notables. If you look at MTV, or golf youve seen these faces. I dont know how we got on this issue of race and stereotypes, but stick to the Subject. Better yet after tonite lets retire the post and watch Greys Anatomy and ER together, gotta love primetime. Lavina is a friend of mine she was visiting when she wrote her post. Kashmirijett what is your obsession with this post? Why did you dig it out the archives when it was dead? Let it go, let your jeliousy on this subject go. We catch your drift. Thank Rinku Sen for this outstanding blog before you go.http://www.gibbsmagazine.com/DrWilliams.htmhttp://www.gibbsmagazine.com/DrWilliams.htmhttp://www.blackinventor.com/pages/philipemeagwali.htmlhttp://www.bioethics.gov/about/carson.html

Kashmiri,well written and a susccesful attempt at sounding irritably erudite, but 2002 on a blog that would appear to be 'dead' (if nothing new has been posted since then) is NOT contemporaneous to this discussion as the TV programs cited were (for the large part) not being broadcast in 2002. Using your logic, one insipid blog page refuting the occurrence of the Holocaust would equal a reason to give such flights of lunacy credence in serious scholarship. Not gonna' happen."Attractiveness", while not worthy of your attention, would seem to be a different issue than 'marriage'. People get married for LOTS of reason and attractiveness may or may not be one of them. If you are unmarried, I could easily give 3 guesses way. No matter how 'certain' you are of the correctness of your opinion, your 'causal' link was conjecture on your part...just admit it.My post was not intended to refute your assertion, but to illustrate that you seem to posit as 'evidence' of foul weather in New York photos of rain clouds in Yorkshire. Bringing a bit more of the typical 'Yank' to the fray - that dog won't hunt. Go get better data. If you've got the wherewithal to chastise African Americans, it seems only reasonable that you spend the time and energy to dig up some AMERICAN (USA, not North or South) data. And by the way, I would doubt that Canada would consider itself a part of the EU.Lastly, while Relax may have made some erros in his\her 'fact-checking' do you actually believe that African Americans have simply lounged about and done nothing in their lengthy stay in North America? That is ...well, idiotic. It simply flies in the face of statistical logic that of some 40 million (I believe the present count) people none (or no reasonable percentage) of them have achieved success and accomplishment in areas OTHER THAN sports and entertainment? Think logically! Then go read Vijay Prashad.Assuming your "~44% doctors" value is also from the UK (once again, I express my doubts) does it not occur to you that when looking at immigrant communities to previous colonial 'masters' there is a tendency for said 'colonial' power to screen out the least desireable elements from the immigrant wave? Thus, in sort of an 'unnatural selection', those that 'make it' to the 'mothership' are preselected to be 'the better and the brighter' of the colony community. This was certainly the case in Canada and the USA both of whom exercised strict controls on the 'type' of person they would admit from India - doctors, engineers, scientists and similar. The 'average' guy couldn't get past the 'home country' screening process to get TO the UK, thus you don't see the "also rans" - they didn't make it.Oy Vey!

A questioner:For once I agree with you, not wholeheartedly, but for the most part. This debate has been around the world and back again. Kashmirajatt why do you reveive it

im indian but wanted to know are indian girls being treated bad (racism)till this day

That should be easy for you to answer

a questioner:i like what you have to say. but you're kinda mean...but in any case, you are obviously beasting out everyone on this post thread.anonymous:umm...nice try._______________ _ _ _i agree staunchly with much of what a questioner states in many of her (?) posts above. a south asian american woman myself, i agree that relationships with black men can be extremely complicated in that there is a great degree of anti-black sentiment within the south asian diaspora; and it is probably true that this racism does not go without mutual exchange of hatred.for me, to watch "neela" marry "michael" is almost ludicrous; i know a few BM/(S)AF couples, but that it was barely influenced by neela's family's politics on that episode of ER was completely unbelievable to me. her parents, if you remember the episode when they came to visit her (played by real life hub&wife anupam and kirron kher), showed us that they were very conservative desis. why was it so easy for neela to get hitched without recourse?i also agree with bean when he talks about the deliberate casting of AF and BM together to fulfill diversity quotas. i'm sure it is all in the economics of television programming, but i'll avoid a marxist critique here.but to change subjects, a questioner, you mentioned this:

"It is untrue, overly restrictive and, in many ways, detrimental to the progress of African Americans and Black people everywhere because hip-hop culture has become so synonymous with 'gangster-ism' which is not a positive identity."

don't get me started on the "whiteness" of progress, etc. if you are a true believer in the gospel of the one and only stuart hall, why would you believe "african americans" buy into this; that too, isn't buying a conscious choice, a preemptive decision? you use the terms buy and propaganda so loosely, i am beginning to suspect if you honestly believe that "african americans" don't realize their own plight. how can anyone prosyletize on the subject of authenticity and "african americanism" (if such a thing really exists) when even "african americans" have no clear handle on the way they wish to be represented, even if it is through the hip hop "culture"?BTW. i *think* that gangster rap, and its spawn of "gangster" hip hop, died out with 2pac and biggie. it also was particularly hastened by p.diddy's (formerly known as puffy) exit from the gangster world. the hip hop music community is like the UN; everyone has alliances and when the big fish goes anti-gangster, so do a lot of others. okay, fine, fat joe, 50 cent and snoop still try, but we all know where coolio (and lil' kim, too) is right now -- and you know these luxurified current rapsters don't want to experience the high life by way of high-security prisons. so, please don't tell me that hip hop is all gangster when it is so obviously not.and also, along the same line, not to be preachy a questioner, but do unto others as you would have them do unto you. stop homogenizing the "black" community or otherwise don't expect understanding by them or anyone else on the Asian-American plight to gain representation. having grown up in a "black", lower middle-class neighborhood my whole life, i doubt my so-called "progressive" friends would appreciate your criticism because it is a bit off mark.nonetheless, i am intrigued by the rest of the comments made by you a questioner, so don't have a hissy fit. everyone else, you should strive to be as thorough and well-versed as AQ when she is on the fly, because she's pretty much got this. and she has great taste in men (i.e. -- daniel kim :P), so more "brownie" points there for her...not that i have any authority there whatsoever to apportion points, lol.peace to the middle east (and jammu & kashmir).best,mudphud girl

A) I didn't re-hash or revive the conversation. I was simply replying to messages directed towards me.B) Questioner, drawing parallels between my points and holocaust deniers is a flimsy attempt at trying to discredit me. You like to drape your commentaries with floral and academic verbiage; here is a term you should look-up, non-sequitur. You clearly have an illogical train of thought. Also, you don't need to give me a geography lesson. I am well aware that the European Union is physically discrete from Canada. I linked the two because of their system of racial classification, which is broader and more accurate than its American counterpart.C)Relax, obviously my advice fell on deaf ears. I made it abundantly clear that pericardium procedures do not constitute "open-heart surgery." The first successful(without any complications) surgery on the heart itself was performed by Ludwig Rehn of Germany.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3888132&dopt=AbstractI am not obsessed with this story, but again, I take exception with individuals who promulgate and espouse lies. Your misinformation regarding Dr.Williams and the first heart surgery may seem insignificant or perhaps just a matter of semantics, but it is a deliberate attempt at changing history and disserves science and its great innovators who discovered or created instruments and ideas that have contributed to humanity. However,it appears that we can agree on one thing. This is a fruitless dialogue and it serves no further purpose to continue on with this cyclical process of me stating facts and facing emotional and misinformed replies.

Relax,There is a marked difference between inventing or discovering something and simply receiving a patent for an alteration, which may or may not be even be an improvement, of an existing property.http://inventors.about.com/od/blackinventors/a/black_myths.htmThe columnist falls short of completely being honest and frank, but it does give some insight on the topic.Here is a more comprehensive list of so called black inventors and their inventionshttp://www33.brinkster.com/iiiii/inventions/

Well like always someone will refute history. Elvis was the first artist to sing "You Aint Nothing But a Hounddog and "Blue suede Shoes", NO, Big Mama Thorston. The Beatles were the first to sing " Twist and shout", No, it was the Isley Brothers. See were im going with this. Good try KJ. Not credidible, stay off those White Supremist websites.

Wow..so much controversy over such an irrational emotion. Love.Anyway, I chose to marry a Trinidadian guy and being from a traditional Indian family that stirred up quite a few emotions in everyone.Although, I must admit that I sort love the look on my aunts/uncles faces when they hear about him. The look of sheer terror! HAHA...The silly part is, he's West-Indian, which means he looks just like some people in my family. But yea, the whole thing about caste, religion and being 'inferior' to my dumbass relatives always is an issue. I personally couldn't care less what they or anyone else thinks of my relationship. My parents came around and even if they hadn't, it still wouldn't have stopped me. When you find love, you hang on for dear life! So to hell with race, caste, religion and the rest of that crap!If I wasn't so damn influenced by my mom's spirituality, I'd swear I'd be an atheist. I loathe the walls that are put up between people based on crap that happend centuries ago. Sprituality and having your own beliefs is fine, but when you start thinking one group is better and/or inferior to another based on those beliefs, that really blows!I guess I'm a hippy at heart, and hopefully one day people will just learn to live and let live.Oh...and all these retarded-ass shows (ER, CSI, Desperate Housewives, Greys, blah blah blah) along with the garbage reality shows really stink!

Relax just drop it. You can't change a racist or a closet racist. He is stuck in his world so just leave him behind. eventually his kind will die off just give it time. No need to waste energy on people who like to trust truths to server there own needs. NEXT SUBJECT!!!

KJ,You are a sad fellow. the 'linkage' of your use of an (apparently) dormant blog to similar nonsense based arguments refuting the Holocaust is clear, simple and entirely 'logical' - blogs are well known for their incredible inaccuracies and their tendency to eschew 'fact' in favor of rhetoric that supports the position of the blogger [and his/her supporters]. So, your use of a dead blog with 5 year old posts DOES discredit you. IF your 'opinion' on the issue was indeed and in fact so universally held, then there would be RECENT posts on credible, fact-verified sites supporting your assertions. You've posted none. GONG! You are OFF the island. Oh, and on the quality of racila classifications, while I am no expert on the matter, I suspect that both the EU AND the Canadian 'tables' are missing one group at the heart of your blather - African Americans. Just a hunch. Sorry you feel so aggrieved at being lumped in with those Paskistanis and Bangledeshis. Send a note to GWB, I am sure he'll get right on it.And, as if to punctuate your 'non-sequiter', you refute Relax with yet another BLOG!!!!! Why not go to a fact-certified, historical organization?And, as the icing on your over-baked cake, I do believe that your www.33brinkster.com link is yet another blog that is largely self-referential. I sincerely hope that you do not submit technical papers for peer review to any serious technical society or similar organization. Your work is shoddy. By the by, is 33brinkster still out and about? I thought they disappeared in late '05.Assuming that you live in the UK, what animus do you have against black Americans that makes you go to such lengths to defame them? If Blacks are so reprehensible to you,why not return to India where you can merge once again with the "~44% doctors" that make up the male populace of the glorious subcontinent.Give us a break puh-leeezzze.GAL.And with that, I am done dealing with your silly posts that have strayed far from the topic at the root of this thread.

KJ, read the achievemnts made by these Pioneers more closely. Ludwig Rehn and Williams were the first to perform firsts in their crafts. You were right I made an error on Williams, In 1893, Williams performed the first successful closure of a wound of the heart and pericardium. The US Military gave tribute to Garrett A. Morgan for inventing the breathing apparatus. KJ, you would make a great cult leader. Your words are deceiving and create much confusion. Lavina is Indian, Desi. I met her in Singapore roughly 7 years ago. She was there visiting family, at the time she was a undergrad student at the University of Washington. when I left Singapore, I thought that would be the last ill see of her, but was I in for a surprise. My best friend who was in Singapore with me at the time met her sister and married her, like the next month. I thought it was crazy, but in our line of work it (at the time) wasnt to uncommon. The 2 of them moved to Washington and convinced me to move here years later. Im not sure if she is SIKH, or what we really never got that deep in our discussions. Next time she visits ill ask. If my memory serves me right she went to a international school. The questions I have for you is what makes them different from other Indians? Are Indians in Singapore differnt from Indians in Malaysia and Britain? Are Indians in America differnt from Indians in India? Ive met People of African disporia from all over the world. Yes we share the same skin tone and come from the same continent, well our beginnings at least, but we differ culturally. Ive met People of different races from all over the world, but many of them shared different views from other groups in their own race. This is not something you will find on the internet, no stats exist. This is my real life experience. Since you have all the answers please enlighten me. The shiittes and sunnis are both Muslims, so why do they persecute each other? I know its been happenning for thousands of years. Im a firm believer that people are individuals first and a race second.

Better dont answer. Time to move on.

Relax, the Shia Sunni schism is beyond the scope of this conversation, so why pose me that query? Look, you can cite your Lavina anecdotal "research" all you want, she does not reflect the overwhelming majority of SA women the world over who marry within their own religious and cultural communities. This means, not with blacks, whites, or even individuals of the same ethnic back-round but who are of different religious affiliations. This is not a statement made out of jealousy but rather reality. So, why are you so agitated? And to reiterate, Dr. Williams was not the first to operate on the pericardium, Dr. Dalton pioneered the procedure two years before Williams. Also, when did the National Library of Medicine become a white supremacist mouthpiece? It's operated by the United States government and contains the world's largest database of medical literature. I linked a CDC report reflecting HIV figures earlier and was faced with retorts of a grand conspiracy against black people, so I am not surprised that a reputable and unbiased scientific organization such as the NLM would be characterized as unreliable.

wow.. so instersting! :Di m hmong....i like indian movies....

Questioner,You suggest that I repatriate to India if I don't like black people, what merit does that directive hold? The last time I checked blacks don't own Western democracies. You've accused me of being a bigot, but statements like that lead me believe that you are the true racialist. Honestly, this is my last post as it's abundantly clear that facts, trends, and reality mean nothing to you. So, remain steadfast on your views because I am resolute with mine.

BORED!I THINK THERE ARELOTS OF HOT LOOKING INDIAN.ONLY some, NOT ALL! :P

Indian women are some of the most beautiful women in the world, if not the beautifulest. excuse the bad grammar, but I think you all get the idea. I saw a couple of Indian movies when I went to India, not bad, not bad at all.

I never said that she represented south asians, I never said she represented asians at all, just herself. Her way of thinking is different and unique from the averge person, let me clarify that first. I wasnt trying to prove anypoints, or put anyone on the defensive. I mean you are south Asian, I was just asking you a personal question, your experience with different cultures abroad , or your own. Trying to see if you can answer a question without posting stats which to me is just numbers on papers. When I try to shy this blog away from some of the pointless statements weve made, Your main objetive is to stay the course, keep discrediting black people for what ever reason, but you do it with a vengeance. I scratch my head wondering whats wrong with this guy. If you think people such as DR Ben Carson are fonies then thats your problem. For the sake of argueing DR Ben Carson was not the first man to seperate siamese twins succesfully, Hes not the top nuerosurgeon in the world. KJ pick a Doctor you like and lets settle this arguement. Charles Drew didnt invent Blood Plasma one of your beloved white Doctors did. Your writing style KJ looks real familiar, but we will leave it at that. Better yet there are no black Doctors in the World, so yes Rinku Sen is insane. try sticking to the subject.

Im a black man and ive been to India. Goa India to be exact. I dont think to many people there was looking down on anyone. That was the poorest country ive ever seen, besides Africa. When I was in Singapore I went to Sultan Muhammad st. Met an Indian girl. We dated internationaly for a while, but the distance ended that. Well I ended it. America is the different. I guess when people who were not born in America lands here. The question is which way are we going to go. Blacks, yes we are rebellious against injustice, but I mean it in a good way. We will challenge the system reguardless if it pisses off mainstream America. So naturally everyone from different coutires are taught to hate black people, but at the same time they cant get of enough of our culture and and yes mudphudgirl, there is Black American Culture, Its not American. Well I guess I have more bad news for you. Another show with and BM/AM lead.correct me if im wrong but the show is daybreak, starring taye diggs on ABC.My friend that works for the Dept of State in Singapore married an Indian Girl. But thats Overseas so I guess it doesnt count. Check this out.http://www.katv.com/news/stories/0505/225064.html

Hi WELL, WELL,Oh! I never said there was no African American mainstream culture. I realize, too, that the reason it perpetuates is most definitely because White middle America consumes black culture...and admittedly so do I *brown is beautiful, too!* :P Not to say that blacks do not consume these cultural things, too. What I meant was that black culture has aspects of it that are not consciously created by blacks, and also not consciously consumed by blacks. I was upset that it could be assumed that blacks want to subscribe to "backward" identities like "gangster" and consciously carry on the "bad image" and sterotypes that go along with it. I've never met a black person who (still, lol) listens to Coolio or 50 Cent tell me that they always wanted to become a gangster when they grew up. Or that Gangster rap in some way represented them, other than through the resistance movements that you speak of.(Unless of course if they were actually in gangs, and I met many who were, but they were not in the majority...)I was just trying to be academic and reference preeminent culture studies theorist Stuart Hall in my last post. I guess I was not clear enough...Umm...I don't get what you meant by "naturally everyone from different coutires are taught to hate black people..." That is a big assumption there! My parents, though they are cultural relativists, call all their so-called "african" colleagues some of the most genial and intelligent people they have met. Where would there be space to be taught to hate blacks in India, I just don't see it...Best,MudPhud Girl

Mud Pud Girl:Well I agree with you on that aspect. Some of the brightest Scientist, Doctors, and politician in America are Black Americans and has always been. The problem is no one talks about DR Ben Carson, or Garrette A. Morgan. They always show that gangster garbbage on MTV because it sells and a large quantity of the youth falls for that crap. 50 cents to me is the stephen fetchet of the 2k. a sell out in the worse form. While working with the U. S Military Ive traveled extensively throughout Asia. Ive visited 3 countries in Asia with large Indian populations. The Homeland(India), Singapore and Malaysia. Ive seen divisions among some Asian interest of Love, culture and Politics as far as those that had interest in the west. I went to Goa, too many Hippie Europeans there. I wasnt so popular in the Motherland with the Women. When I went to Singapore the Indians there went Black man Crazy. The funny thing about it,We met a crowd of Indian girls in the clark quey district they took us a Club were all the Black people hang. Im Thinking they were talking about people of African disporia, but they meant Indians. It was a Hip Hop club with a crunk DJ and half of the people in there was darker than me. there was a lot of American Military from the Sembawang Air Force, Navy base there. It was a club in Singapore on the world famous Mohammad Sultan Rd. I spent a week with this Indian Girl. We watched Bollywood movies and I was introduced to Indian culture for the first time. I will admit Indian women are the most beautiful women in the world. one of my favorite Movies is a Indian Movie starring Bipasha Basu named JIZM. The point im making is this love affair can happen on an international level. Ive seen Black men dating Indian Girls Overseas. Once people come to America they want to be American as possible and kiss who ever butt is in power to get that honorary card. Im Black, but I do not listen to Hip Hop. A lot of my Black friends do not listen to American Hip Hop. If you do not talk to a lot of Black Americans then you would know this. We are Individuals first then a race second. I listen to old R@B music from the 50s to the early 80s when people actually could sing. This relationship between neela and the Captain is some what realisitc because its more of an International relationship than domestic. She is from the UK, He is in the Military. These types of relationships are happening among Asians and Blacks. Kinda like Tiger Woods. American Asians and Blacks well maybe thats a different story. despite some of the hatred that people are taught towards one another is the same. At this moment I here people talking about how much the hate Arabs since 9/11. Ive read a story how a sikh was discrminated against because ignorant people thought he was he a threat. People see certains Asians of muslim faith and discriminate against them just as hard as blacks. Some of them were indonesian and Indian(sikhs). So see the power of media. See how it makes people think. This was in reference to that assumption comment made above. Everyone has assumtions about everyone, not just blacks. Japanese and Koreans are taught to hate each other from what I was told and seen. when I went those countries. Because of all the slaughtering and rapes committed by the Japanese Military when they invaded Korea and China before WWII. This is a topic thats talked about till this day over there. Ive seen the hate between these two countries first hand. Deep, I guess the second point im making is the hate bigger than black people in different countries. Everyone here is on an American way of thinking and thinks the rest of the world thinks as they do. Whites, Blacks and Asians alike. Im not saying im an expert on some of this stuff, but I can honostly say that i gathered my info from talking to the source and yet a lot is from assumptions. So that will give you an idea as well

MPG,AQ here. No hissy fit on the horizon. I was flattered to be so elegantly quoted, commended and challenged. And linked to Stuart Hall??!! Well, I got a promotion didn't I? Good to see that some readers can take a 'problem' posed and shift their view to a larger frame of reference than their own personal experiences. Any of us can cite individuals or incidents that counter statistical norms, be they media depictions or actual couples, but the statistical norms are just that for a reason.I think you misunderstood my "...because hip-hop culture has become so synonymous with 'gangster-ism' which is not a positive identity." statement.First, I am not saying that all (or even most) Black Americans 'buy into' this belief - I don't think that most Black Americans want to be or consider themselves 'gangstas' nor do they believe that the portrayal of same in videos and the like are the norm for Black American life. What I am saying is that all too often, this narrow presentation of 'Black America' is the one that is shown and posited as 'normal' for Black [people] - maybe more targetedly, Black American males under the age of 28. Also, 'gangsterism' is not synonymous with 'gangsta rap', but even P.Diddy (honestly, how gangster can you be with the name 'Diddy"???) fell into the trap of his wanna-be press clippings and videos with the stupid 'gun play in the club' routine a couple years ago. Maybe the term shouldn't be 'gangster' but definitely there are 'social norm' problems when concepts like 'pimpin' and 'Tip Drill' become synonymous with s group of people and a 'culture'.Cohorts of Busta Rhymes being shot, Fabolous being shot, Benie Sigel in Philly...there is too long of a list of 'bad boys' (and some girls) who all 'sing the same' and 'look the same' such that 'middle America' won't make the effort to sort out the good from the bad - sort of like Memoirs of a Geisha with an all Chinese cast (except the guy). [You know there all "Asian" something or others, so...]The short form, broad spectrum read will be 'Rap people have bad things happen around them. They are trouble.' Along with that will be the never ending series of commercials, etc, with 'rap' soundtracks and 'identifiably' Black voices, photo shoots with 'angry looking Black men in oversized clothes'...and presto! change-o! Media Image\Message Framing!Rap People=Trouble;Rap People=Black People;Black People=Trouble.Not a tough sell in the US - they have been at it a while. Rap is just the latest 'verification' of the validity of the 'theory'.A variant of this same message - "the source of trouble" - was promulgated in the Katrina coverage as well. Who's face graced the media as 'the suffering poor'? Black people again!Yet whose community is the slowest to receive aid commensurate with their damages? I'll let you guess.The resultant 'classifications' for Black Americans CAN'T be good. They are either 'soon to be shot' or 'soon to be impoverished' or 'soon to suffer'. It makes it hard for a 'regular' (or "progressive") Black person to get anything done or be taken seriously. Even if the reaction isn't outright 'eww! get away!', it can become 'there, there. I know you can't handle anything yourself' paternalism. Each is a burden in its own way.That was my point.As for there being 'some' subset of African Americans who 'buy into' the concept of hip-hop being the 'authentic representation of Black America' - I say this because I know some of those people. I talk to them regularly and they do 'buy into' that concept. Some get subscriptiosn and some buy an issue at a time, but they purchase regularly at the 'hip-hop is the voice of resistance' window. Hip-hop CAN be a voice of resistance, but like much in America, hip-hop is a product; a fashion and it is sold. Hell, 'resistance' is 'sold' as a fashion here - remember the "Rebel without a Cause", James Dean? Marketed 'rebelllion' is what he was.I agree with you..most African Americans would be hard pressed to compile a 5 bullet point list of what they want to be 'defined' as in America. My susggestion, and I suggest it to [almost] all 'minorities' here in the USA, IF your plan is to be a citizen, then define yourself as 'American' and take ownership of your country. Stop renting your nation and buy in. This doesn't mean 'love it or leave it' but recognize who and what you are and run with it. WE can reshape this thing to be more representative of us too. It galls me every time I meet someone whom I've spoken to over the phone or on-line and they say "Oh. I thought you were American. You are so articulate!"I AM F***$%# American you idiot! And a college graduate to boot. Of course I'm articulate!!AS for Coolio, last I saw his no-talent-having, non-rhyme-saying, stupid hair wearing skinny behind he was playing the requisite 'Black American Drug Dealer' doing poorly choreographed martial arts moves in a Chinese film where the Chinese cop was the most round-eyed Chinese guy you were going to find ANYWHERE named 'Steve' or some such nonsense. Needless to say, Coolio met his demise at the hands of 'Steve' on a rooftop somewhere over a fantasy 'Shanghai'. This was on a flight to Taipei. Of course, Coolio was the only Black person in the movie. I thought to myself, "Damn, I feel sorry for Black people! To be represented by Coolio. Damn."Oh, it occurs to me that as for your parents being much more 'respectful' of their African friends than they show to African Americans, this is no surprise. Many people (including Africans and African Americans) make a clear and sharp distinction between the two. So much so that there is a noticeable rift between the two communities in the US. Your progressive friends may deny their 'involvement' and this may be true for them, but if they are sentient beings, I doubt they could completely deny its existence. San Francisco might be a little different because the Black population is so low that there is often a 'circle the wagons' attitude which tends to neutralize that trend.Oh Oh! I am glad someone mentioned this new Taye Diggs show (another handsome gent) and his [appears to be] Asian GF. Now, soembody try to tell me there is no 'plot' here!!! I could take a roll of pennies and throw them off the Empire State building at lunchtime and not hit as many BM and AFs as these programs seem to have 'hit' purely by 'accident'.MPG, it is so nice to make your acquaintence!

Well You see a little bit more BM/AFs on the west coast. I see a few relationships in the Washington state area. Well remember in the bay area. Vallejo, Richmomd , Oakland and Marin are predominatly black cities in San Francisco area. Fillmnore is the Black section of San Francisco if im correct.Who controls the media? Who does the media benefit? Only a shallow fool would put complete faith in media and believe everything said. Since 911 a lot of Muslim Asian are being discriminated against. I read a paper that an Pakistani, or Indian sikh boarded a plane soon after 9/11. A caucasion lady made a ruckus about them being terrorist and wouldnt fly because she thought they were terrorist. Its just perception. When Hip HOp first came out it was political with strong messages. Today commercialism has destroyed the art form like it did Rock N Roll. When you talk to some people its not always the case

Does anyone watch CURRENT TV, its the best channel out there. Check out these linksNew parents Andrea and Jerry explore their own racial identities as they are forced to pinpoint that of their newborn son. Having endured their own share of discrimination growing up, they hope their newborn son can grow up identifying as something other than "otherhttp://current.com/items/76303482_something_other_than_other"Secret Asian 007" is a video about a Korean-American filmmaker who is living a secret life from her traditional Korean family. She describes what it is like to break a major cultural taboo by dating an African American and the struggle to hide her relationship for three years.http://current.com/items/76346702_secret_asian_007

taye diggs can be my boyfriend anytime

I know this blog is dead, but check out this you tube. It can Happenhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkjdBuVrBiI&mode=related&search=

AQ,Most indubitably! It is inspiring to make your acquaintance as well.Thank you for the clarification on what you meant about the synonymity btw gangsterism and hip-hop culture. I agree with you very much on the marketed rebellion schtick. What is most troubling, however, is that the individuals who control the images being produced are primarily white middle-aged males. While it is true that many black youth (and I say that because though a few grandpas/mas bump the Cee-lo or Freeway in their Oldsmobile Cutlass, most older blacks listen to funk, jazz, r&b and other non-gangster-ish music and identify with those movements of rebellion) understand that there is a great difference between their identity and the way facets of their identity are being represented in mass media, there are still a great many who subscribe to the gangster identity.Blacks who feel that the messages coded in gangster rap particularly resonate with their politics are not in fact subscribing to some "African American" identity or black empowerment movement formed by the black community, but rather one that is a tool used subversively in maintaining white patriarchal hegemony.Marked differences can be seen even in the spaces in which albums released by gangster rap artists are advertised; generally you don't see posters of Beanie Sigel in white suburbia, you see him plastered on SEPTA bus stands in North or West Philly (or some such region) where the oppressed, impoverished youth live. Selling the image of a man from the streets who pulled himself up to the top of his game by his bootstraps, and yet who still maintains his "roots" by being thug is such an underhanded way of telling black youth that they can succeed and move out of the projects but only if they stay a criminalistic gangster, not a law-abiding citizen. Those blacks who are wealthy and listen to gangster rap, tend to find out from connections to urban areas, and as some twisted tribute and contribution back (which doesn't go back anywhere but instead to the white man's hand/pocket) to the ghetto, the old neighborhood. I feel that rebellion in the form of rap is non-existent unless it is by Dead Prez, etc, and even then I question whether rebellion can be sold, and still remain a rebellion.Though I believed once that rappers like Common, Kanye West, Talib Kweli, Missy Elliott, and so on, were changing the face of hip-hop, particularly rap, I wonder now if their music too is coded with "stay in your place" rhetoric from white producers. It doesn't matter, because I will still listen to it, and will probably still unconsciously perpetuate white hegemony. (I think I just threadjacked, but hell, hip-hop was my life growing up.)Finally, yes, you are right that my parents hold their actual African colleagues in higher esteem than their black colleagues. However, being the FOBs my parents are, despite having been in the US for 26 years, they used to call all blacks, Africans, Caribbean Islanders, etc., as "Africans." Only recently have they been calling blacks, blacks. But yes, it is true that Indo-Americans and blacks have mutual exchanges of hatred. This is also the result of an historic pitting of blacks against Asian Indians to serve the white patriarchy. Racial formation is a conservative, white interest, and the racially motivated anger between blacks and Asian Indians can be traced back to the consideration by the US government in the early 1900s of Asian Indians as "caucasian," thereby granting them privileges such as land ownership and an ability to jump scales and become mobilized to move up between classes. There are also recent incidences of violence in urban areas which tend to create neighborhood wars between lower-middle class and poor black and Asian Indian communities, particularly regarding residential and business property. Urban blacks are generally regarded in the Asian Indian community as "frequenters to liquor stores" and it is also no secret that franchises of liquor stores are owned by the very Asian Indians who spread this stereotype of blacks. When a liquor store owner gets shot or robbed, the black community gets blamed first because their neighborhoods are perceived as crime ridden and the cause of problems. Blacks on the other hand may also have negative stereotypes of Asian Indians, which I don't really know enough about to speak on. However, these contentions may be a result of two communities sharing deed restricted space which is controlled by white power. Kinda similar to the race riots in LA after Rodney King's murder. So yes, I will concede that the relations between Asian Indians and blacks is nuanced by a history of oppression, violence, and hatred.As for Taye Diggs...I lurrrrvee his dimples. 'Nuff said.Best,MudPhud Girl

Long version of Akira Hip Hop shophttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txG_7LdshAo&feature=RecentlyWatched&page=1&t=t&f=b

Someone asked me if I would vote for Allen. I was not going to vote for him even before the Macaca incident. I could not reply earlier because I was in California and Hawaii away from my east coast home. White men or women with the opposite sex of any other race is a no-no for many people. That is why the Republicans ran a commercial implying that the Democratic Senate Candidate in Tennessee who is African American loves white women. Had they run a commercial showing an Asian woman telling Harold Ford, "call me", no one would have bothered except perhaps Asian Americans...and that is the main reason why there are more Asian American women shown to be dating white men in various shows although in the real America there are more Caucasian men dating Asian American women. I would bet that if the GOP ran a commercial showing an Asian woman telling a white Democratic candidate to call him, the latter would loose as well, particularly in the South. In the finaly analysis, the GOP commercial in Tennessee was also seen in Ohio and PA where black GOP candidates are running for governorships..real racists who oppose IR and who vote GOP would likely stay home, especially in the Ohio valley..resulting in the Dems picking up enough House seats in those two states to put them on the road to majority.

MudPhud Girl:I do not know which part of India your folks are from. But, in the South, there are many Indian women who can pass for black...and among the Singaporeans of South Indian origin, this is especially true.

Hey MPG! Nice to see you back. I suppose we ought not to use the board's space for personal "hellos".You are on point in paragraph 1 my dear! The 'gangsta' image has its inherent problems, but the bigger issue I see is that there has become an almost singular 'presentation format' of African Americans and that is the 'hip hop'\in the hood image. Where something 'different' is shown, it is often depicted as being 'inauthentic'; that somehow the subject has become 'lost' or separated from his or her roots OR it is revealed that they have a 'non-traditional' past (Caribbean). This 'framing' has served to do two things - 1) non-Blacks assume that this is the correct depiction of Blacks so their suspician or aprehension in dealing with blacks is justified and 2) [young] Blacks take these images to heart and 'construct' part of their own identity from them or else they must live in conflict with their perceived difference. Part of the 'magic of the sale' is the fact that the purveyors of the 'image' are the people held in high esteem (entertainers, athletes). So in order to be 'authentic' to the publicized 'black identity', the young folks buy into the 'thug life' representation.While I can agree to a point that this imaging is controlled by white men, some bame has to be heaped on the athletes and entertainers sign on to these representations and they know the negative outcome potential.The difference in perception of african americans and africans (or people from the caribbean) is not just a south asina thing. i think it also exists (with maybe less intensity) in the various black communities too.As for those community conflicts, one source is the feeling from blacks that their communities are constatly under 'invasion' by 'others' who are given opportunities [owning the local food joint] that are denied to blacks. This is a gross simplification of a very complicated situation, but that is what most people do.So anyway, yo know your geographic anthropology Miss! "SEPTA", "West Philly" , "North Philly"you sound like a 'round the way' gal!

this is primarily in response/dialogue with a questioner. it is long, but please do read. it’s not often that, I atleast, encounter people willing to discuss this sort of thing intelligently..."As for there being 'some' subset of African Americans who 'buy into' the concept of hip-hop being the 'authentic representation of Black America' - I say this because I know some of those people. I talk to them regularly and they do 'buy into' that concept. Some get subscriptiosn and some buy an issue at a time, but they purchase regularly at the 'hip-hop is the voice of resistance' window. Hip-hop CAN be a voice of resistance, but like much in America, hip-hop is a product; a fashion and it is sold. Hell, 'resistance' is 'sold' as a fashion here - remember the "Rebel without a Cause", James Dean? Marketed 'rebelllion' is what he was."Here is the issue, I believe and Franz Fanon (french -algerian anti-imperialist) I should think would agree: you have a mode of cultural expression formed by and utilized by "the opressed" (for lack of better term) against those that dominate politically, economically, what have you, so what is done? Those that dominate enable and perpetuate this form of cultural expression not so that it can bring change or transformation, but to freeze what is culture into remarkably ineffective and often self-defeating "tradition." Hip hop is no longer an engine for societal change, in fact variance is discouraged; rather, it is an engine for the propagation of stereotypes both in the black and non-black camps. For example, on the bus to campus this morning, I encountered an Asian girl (Singaporean) with rather loud hiphop emanating from her headphones. There is nothing particularly alarming or different about this girl. There are many other young Singaporean girls and boys with her musical tastes. The contradition (and I would say problem) arises once you consider the fact that this group as a whole will have nothing to do with black students--be they of african or african american descent. If they can avoid sitting beside them, they will. If they see them walking down the street at night, they will cross to the other side of the street. And heaven forbid they ever have a discussion with them (and find out that they just may be human). This of course does not represent the whole pie, only a piece and a very big piece at that. A similar sort of paradox can be found among white students, *enter non-black racial identity* students. So if the sale of hiphop music is not meant to "enlighten" people and bridge cultura gaps, what is it meant to do? Widen those gaps. As a questioner pointed out, it solidifies the perception that black people, though they might make good music, are trouble.As far as the effect of the hiphop stereotype on black youth, I think it causes 4 types of indentity crises. The first, as mentioned by others on this forum, is the idea that hiphop must be personalized as the only means of cultural resistance and expression. The negative impacts that this might have go without saying. Growing up both in britain and america, I lived in predominately white neigborhoods, so I did not witness the split in black youth as I matured. However, it was ever so obvious as I watched my little sister’s friends, who bought into the “hiphop, r&b and no other alternative” idealogy, entrench themselves in the “Hiphop” life style from middle-school on upwards. I think that this is the first identity crisis--the idea that black culture is a monoculture. The second also pertains to this idea of monoculture, in that many black youth (myself included), who find that their interests, muscial and otherwise, are not inline with this monoculture attitude, are questioned and question the degree of their “blackness.” While the concept of blackness--that one’s skin tone or ethnic origin should determine one’s thought pattern and identity--is absurd; nevertheless it is a reality. This past year plus in university, I’ve seen these identity crises result in three major factions of black students on campus. One refuses to indentify and associate with anyone or anything that is not “black.” Another will have nothing to do with anyone or anything that is “black.” The last chooses to strike it out alone, excepting what comes. Whatever the case, there is no unity. It is amazing, how by supporting, enabling and facilitating the spread of hiphop music (and other cultural forms) the dominating faction has carried on the problems hiphop first aimed to highlight and comabat. This is not the only example of such a scenario. Consider what has become of jazz. I cannot tell you the last time I saw a jazz band or jazz choir with a single black sole in it. For the sake of “preservation,” the dominating party has appropriated the “oppressed’s” means of resistance. Consider bosa nova in Brazil. What was once developed for the “lower” classes, became the lounge music of the upper classes.I agree with you..most African Americans would be hard pressed to compile a 5 bullet point list of what they want to be 'defined' as in America. My susggestion, and I suggest it to [almost] all 'minorities' here in the USA, IF your plan is to be a citizen, then define yourself as 'American' and take ownership of your country. Stop renting your nation and buy in. This doesn't mean 'love it or leave it' but recognize who and what you are and run with it. WE can reshape this thing to be more representative of us too.This is much easier said than done. If one does not have a solid grasp of himself how can he understand his place in society? I think you have contradicted yourself. If “most African Americans would be hard pressed to compile a 5 bullet point list of what they want to be 'defined' as in America” let alone who they acutally are, how can they make the leap to identifing themselves as American? What is American? Then, how can they “own” this thing that is being American? If they are immigrants (naturalized or not) the issues still remains that they are not “American” whatever that is. They cannot just stand up and by saying “I am American” wash away there issues of identity. Nor will the majority accept them as “American” just because they say they are. I could detail my parent’s experience in this country, but I won’t for sake of time.It galls me every time I meet someone whom I've spoken to over the phone or on-line and they say "Oh. I thought you were American. You are so articulate!"I AM F***$%# American you idiot! And a college graduate to boot. Of course I'm articulate!!This is just how I feel when I am first introduced to friends of friends, parents of friends, siblings of friends, who greet me with “Wow, I’ve heard so much about you, I thought you were white.” (I am NOT kidding!!)And, “wow you are so articulate/educated for a black person!”and, “your english is so good.”“your mother received her medical training in lagos?”and the list coud go on and on......i really like this discussion, by the way, and sorry for the LONG post.

i forgot to add that i don't think there is anything wrong with Singaporean folk, or anyone for that matter, listening to hiphop...unless it's all about "b!@tches and hos"....

AQ,LOL! Yeah, I know, we should avoid the personal hello's...but we do also engage in discussion! So it's even-steven, I say :) Now that we are introduced, we can move on and talk about cooler stuff. What's a 'round the way gal' (sorry, I'm completely inept at euphemism translations :P)? Actually, I hail from the Philly-ish area and have attended school/lived in other places. Okay, okay site admin, I'll move on now!

This 'framing' has served to do two things - 1) non-Blacks assume that this is the correct depiction of Blacks so their suspician or aprehension in dealing with blacks is justified and 2) [young] Blacks take these images to heart and 'construct' part of their own identity from them or else they must live in conflict with their perceived difference.

I agree. Also, I really find the second conclusion there very poignant. This idea that individuals are "living in conflict with their perceived difference" is something which may apply to many non-white groups in the US. That feeling of anomie seems to justify social suicides of sorts; *if I don't belong, then eff it, I will be something else.* For the desi diaspora, there is always a conflict between being loyal to Indian roots/culture/values, and being Americanized/modern/well-adjusted. However, individuals who do not fit neatly under the desi identity tend to commit social suicide, socializing with other "Alterna-desi's" (as we like to call ourselves) or non-Asian Indians completely.However, for the diaspora, it is hard to just call oneself American, as think suggests (though I love that concept) because there are other facets to the identity of non-white Americans than simply American. Calling oneself simply "American" simultaneously denies the individual the history of their acculturation experience, which is what their American identity is about. But then, think is kinda justified in saying not to rent out our nation and buy in. I guess the real dilemma is that 'American' seems to be appropriated by society without many costs to the individual primarily when the individual is Western white. And the traumatic experience of non-whites in a still very much racist US is of realizing that even though we all say the pledge every morning in kindergarten, we are not all equal Americans, and that America is not indivisible where liberty and justice for all comes without obstacles. Can one self-reference as only American, when being American also includes being 'the other'? Additionally, within the diaspora, I feel that there is a concern to prevent a loss of identity, hence the self-referencing as South Asian or Asian American (with or without the 'hyphen', that's a whole 'nother discussion!).Societal pressures to conform to one cultural identity over another silences voices of difference, which could also lead into think's idea that mainstream hip hop excludes "variant" hip hop, hence voices within communities. so while media and pop culture homogenize, the societal effect, to be an outsider/insider, to be American/Not, also homogenize. Uff...it's so pessimistic :(Raj,I'm South Indian; also, I'm "light skinned." I think what you meant to say is that skin color is directly correlated to melanin content in the skin. And while melanin content in the skin is genetically pre-determined, race is not because race is a social construct. If you want more biology for your membrane, the SNPs (single nucleotide polmorphisms) which are observed in genes which code for skin color show a high degree of homology across ALL so-called races. This means that there is only one skin color gene, everyone has it, and differences in the code for skin color is arbitrary and means basically nothing in terms of 'racial differences.' It is statistically impossible that races can exist biologically since differences in skin color is such an arbitrary biological phenomenon and since it is really only a measure of variance within one gene -- skin color. And since none of this is actually addressing what you mentioned :), I should say that I *think* I know what you mean, but that is true everywhere in India, man. I've seen large variances in skin color all over India -- North, Central, and South (I haven't been to Western India, yet).Wait...why did you say "I do not know which part of India your folks are from. But, in the South, there are many Indian women who can pass for black...and among the Singaporeans of South Indian origin, this is especially true," anyway?Remember to turn your clocks back on Sunday, y'all! Happy Saturday!Best,MudPhud Girl

MudPhudGirl:No insult intended. I am from the South of India, but left India in my teens. Grew up partly in Singapore and the US. I am nearly 50 now. Lived in Singapore recently for abour 30 months. An African American friend of mine really wondered about the "black" women in Singapore...he did mistake the dark skinned Tamil women for black!

well they (dark-skinned Tamil folks) are 'black' - they're just not african. so i guess that helps to deflate silly thinking that equates skin color to attributes, intelligence, etc. the AA mistaking the Tamil women for 'black' is perfectly normal. Go to the African Horn or to New Orleans. In some places a black african might be mistaken for Tamil.Think - killer post buddy! you hit a point i've tried to make more subtley on other threads in here. So many people want to be 'down' with the b-boy/hip-hop thing, but have nothing to do with the 'source' of that music (the people). It becomes 'packaged revolution' so they can feel sufficiently 'edgy' while not addressing the issues that gave birth to the art form. Sort of like how 'punk' as an attitude became 'new wave' as a style.As for the embracing their 'American-ness', white Americans (for the most part) have little 'concept' of what that means or what they 'are' - beyond their own identity as individuals. As such, the question of 'what is white America?' never comes up because it is accepted as 'conventional thinking' that 'American' means 'white'. They have conditioned themselves (and are accepted by too many of us) to see themselves as the 'norm' - therefore no definition is necessary. Thus anything and everything is 'open' to invasion and co-option by whites. No disrespect, but like cockroaches, they're everywhere. I mean you can turn on the Discovery Channel at 2 AM for a special on animal husbandry in ancient Nepal and there will be some white guy waxing wise on the subject. I used to just scream "WTF!!! Why isn't there a Nepalese person with superior knowledge of this arcane subject?" But, I have stopped screaming and begrudgingly have to give props to the pasty faced dweeb who can step into the arena of Nepalesian animal husbandry with total confidence that he has game. You've got to have a grapefruit-sized pair of stainless steel 'ones' to be so confident. I think that minorities need to free themselves to be as 'variable' as whites. We need to say "Yup. I am complex so I can be anywhere and anything and you just have to deal with the fact that I won't fit in your preconceived box." The 'identity box' (to which Black kids either retreat, rebel or deny) while offering the comforts of a cultural 'home' also tethers them to a fixed location and limits the range of options... and opportunties. A similar box is built for Asians, Latinos and others too. I think that within the American context, the box is tougher to evacuate for African Americans, Native Americans and Puerto Ricans because they (for the most part) have little or no recollection of a time when they were not in that box (either forceably or otherwise). Nor can they point to another country from which they can concretely draw a link to themselves that has conquered the Western European juggernaut. Most other 'minority groups', if their arrival was largely fueled by immigration, can recall directly or thru living relatives, a world in which 'they' (people that look like them) did everything that had to be done. This frees a person to imagine a wider range of possibilities. That's liberation!Free your mind and you ass will follow :-)Now MPG, this isn't to say that they should abandon their cultural heritage - some guy named Joey Bago'donuts writes the definitive history of Motown and STILL eats pasta and wears his horn-of-plenty. He successfully balances the two 'cultures'. We can too. We can also, because of our inherent 'bi-lingualism' are actually better suited to it. Those of us caught betwixt and between are 'native speakers' from the way back. DuBois talked about 'the mask' and the need for African Americans to navigate in two worlds about 100 years ago (yes, Think, we can go old school here too - Franz Fanon! killer! boy, killer!)so in short, ew've got the masks and the stealth, so lets go ninja and take this thing back.We are the New 2nd World - Like AVIS, We Try Harder....and MPG....ahhhh!I knew you were a Philly gal!

"I mean you can turn on the Discovery Channel at 2 AM for a special on animal husbandry in ancient Nepal and there will be some white guy waxing wise on the subject. I used to just scream "WTF!!! Why isn't there a Nepalese person with superior knowledge of this arcane subject?""Questionnaire:International organizations have a variable quota for staffing purposes. Until recently, say seven years ago, unless you were white, your chance of getting in through the American quota was zero. This is still the case at the Asian Development Bank, although they wont say it to your face. In 2000, I went to the ADB based in Manila to discuss about job opportunities. An Indonesian personnel officer looked at me and said that unless I had an Asian passport I did not have any chance of entering as Americans were overrepresented. The same night, another white American woman less qualified than I am was wined and dined by the ADB and was given the job, as she fit in to their perspective of being American and this was for a job in Malaysia and India, the countries where I have lived in and studied and also worked for extensive periods of time. As for her, this was her first visit to Asia and she did show up in the Discovery Channel from India. Eventually I ended up in Singapore.

you bore down to much Raj. not to dismiss your point but look beyond 'international organizations'. it registers almost no shock to most people that there is some white person holding themselves out as authorities on almost every and any subject. they are ubiquitous and we (the black, brown and beige) need to grab some of that 'spotlight' and run with it. i would love it if i could turn on the TV and there, pratling on as an expert in post WWII Poland and Catholicism was some Sri Lankan woman who was NOT married to a white guy and she is debating the significance of said church with a black man who is an expert on the collapse of the Eastern Orthodox Church and the impact of said power vacuum on the growth of radical Islam...and his name is DeShawn. You take my shit - I take your shit.

"would love it if i could turn on the TV and there, pratling on as an expert in post WWII Poland and Catholicism was some Sri Lankan woman who was NOT married to a white guy and she is debating the significance of said church with a black man who is an expert on the collapse of the Eastern Orthodox Church and the impact of said power vacuum on the growth of radical Islam...and his name is DeShawn."Comment: Last June when I was passing through Japan I saw a Japanese woman talk about Poland and Catholicism from Poland and as far as I know she was not married to a white. Unfortunately it was all in Japanese...she was the expert on Europe. Then there is Lisa Ang of Channel News Asia in Singapore, married to a Filipino if I am right. She is the expert on western world..and hosts a program called High Life with Lisa Ang. Then of course there is another young lady named Diana Ser, and she is also an expert on the west. These are the only three women I know.