On Asian American Dating

August 3, 2007

Just a thought before the weekend: if I tell you that I — an Asian American woman who lives in San Francisco — have a boyfriend, what ethnicity would you assume he was?

A friend says that if he met an Asian American woman in the Bay Area, and she mentioned she had a boyfriend, he would assume her boyfriend was white. Do you agree? What does this say about dating in our community? Does it make a difference if the woman lives in another place, say Chicago or New York? What assumptions do you make about girlfriends of Asian American men? And what about gay Asian Americans?


Lisa Wong Macabasco

Former Editor in chief

Lisa Wong Macabasco joined Hyphen in 2006; she has worked as the magazine's features editor, managing editor, and editor in chief. She has written for Mother Jones, the San Francisco Bay Guardian, AsianWeek, Audrey, Filipinas and ColorLines’ RaceWire. She graduated from U.C. Berkeley and Columbia University’s Graduate School of Journalism and co-founded the National Asian American Student Conference. She was formerly an editor at AsianWeek newspaper and an editor in the marketing department of the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art.



Why is it that when asian women date white guys it's seen as selling out, and self hating and white-worshipping? But when asian men date white women it's seen as empowering? That's some fucked up sexist shit! I'm tired of hearing this, especially from asian men who complain about asian women dating outside the race. That you think this way means you yourself buy into the notion of white superiority.
That's because the ratio is completely imbalanced, Sandra.If ratio of Asian men dating white women were the same or close to the same as Asian women who are with white men, I doubt you'd hear much of it. In fact, if the situation were reversed, I would be nodding in agreement that Asian men were sellouts.Additionally, Asian women have inherited a very nasty stereotype, which I think is fully deserved, in that they actively go out of their way to bash Asian men and Asian culture in general as if it were earning them brownie points with white men.Sorry to say but it isn't as black and white as you make it out to be.
hmmm. a bit of a fire storm here on this. i guess to me the thing isn't about 'hating on' or even being "bitter" about it, but just observation.It would seem that, based upon the statistics, the ratio of 'outmarriage' for Asian women is very much greater than the out marriage rates for Asian men (30+% v. less than 10%). Also, the outmarriage rate for Asian women is much greater than for any other demographic except Jews. So would you conclude that Asian women are more 'openminded' in their selection of mates?Possibly but, at the same time their outmarriage rate is 3+ times that of males (and I think the 10% figure cited by others is very high), the 'selectivity' of 'outmarriage' partners for Asian women is VERY specific - white men (98+%). So even if one were to argue that Asian women were in some way seeking to experience the 'broader spectrum' of the "American mosaic", their clear preference is for a very narrow slice of that spectrum.With regard to a 'double standard' being applied to Asian women v. Asian men and 'out dating' or 'outmarriage', there may be some of that but then again consider this - To the extent that Asian women date ALL types of men - Asian and otherwise from a non-biased standpoint; and given their much higher percentage of outmarriage one would expect that there is a statistically large enough sample such that you would expect to see a greater percentage of AW outmarriage to non-Asians other than white. But you don't. And there must be a reason for that as well. So you could [possibly] draw some conclusions from that data too.Granted, I suspect that you also won't see much diversity in the mates of outmarrying Asian men, but given their small percentage that may be a result of the small sample population. Or maybe it is a result of the same 'cultural trait' that is reflected in the statistics in Asian women.If you assume a pretty even distribution of white men to white women (and similarly for Asians) there would be roughly equal population pools for both {Asian and white) sexes to draw on for mates...but Asian men do not and Asian women do. And the percentage of 'outmarrying' white women to white men is much closer than that for Asians (across genders). So it be thought that the 'market' for white men that want to marry Asian women is 'exhausted'. But what about the other way around? Any guesses out there?So it seems that, based on the statistics there is a fairly strong preference amongst Asian women to marry white men. THIS IS CERTANILY NOT STRONGER THAN THEIR PREFERENCE TO MARRY ASIAN MEN (2+ TO 1). But still much higher than for any other non-White group except Jews. And I don't know how Jewish outmarriage breaks down on the gender basis.So a question might be raised as to 'what's up with that'? How are Asian women being 'socialized' such that such a high poercentage of them "prefer' white men to Asian men and to every other type of man too?Now the irony I find when listening to Asian women complain about 'yellow fever' sufferers is just a personal point of bemusement and not germane to the discussion.But....
If you were a sound economist, you'd have realized that China unloading it's bonds is impossible as I doubt they'll want to ruin thier economy just to help Asians in the US.Regardless, my point being is that the Asian American community is just being replaced by immigrants and isn't really forming it's own identity.
Sure, people may have their ethnic preferences of any sort, which you may see as justifiable or not. But viable relationships are not as cut and dry as ethnic preferences, either. Whatever happened to things like having the same sense of humor, or the same outlook on life, or the same goals? Or because you genuinely like them as people?Dating is hard, no matter what ethnicity or gender you are. Being white doesn't automatically admit people into dating heaven--there are plenty of miserably single white people out there. And interracial relationships aren't exactly a piece of cake, either. (By the way, I've seen several hapa newborns in SF in the past month--with white moms.)But what certainly doesn't help the Asian dating scene is the bashing on Asian American women with things like the "deserved inheritance of nasty stereotypes," or calling them materialistic sluts, as I have read many times elsewhere. That's sexism. And being a person of color doesn't absolve you from that.To Ken: your girlfriend might be a bit bummed out to know that you aren't with her for wonderful personality.
Rebecca,i hope you didn't take my post to say that AA women are 'materialistic sluts' or they are now burdened with 'the deserved inheritance of nasty stereotypes'. That last one would be a slippery slope as you could apply it to almost all groups in some form or fashion as a justification of troubles they might be having now. I also certainly agree that similar traits - sense of humor, goals, outlook on life, etc - and the broader 'genuinely like the person' should be the driving force in mate selection. the observation I have is that if these were the real drivers in all circumstances of AA women 'outmarriage' you would think that you would see more 'alignment' of these 'parameters' across a more diverse selection of partner 'types'. Wouldn't you?
Eddy I completely agree. Why is it only about Asian Americans and Whites? What about the latinos, blacks, etc etc. Why does this debate only include these 2 groups. Are these other groups not even part of the dating/marriage pool? It seems like it from this discussion. Do not be so naive people. We are all a product of our environment and are influenced by it. What does our society tell us about AAW and AAM? What images does it portray? What themes does it reinforced on a daily basis? If you identify those then it will be easier to understand this situation.
Actually, I think there was a topic that stretched for over 200 comments. Same topic, of course. Ahhhhh, good to see the Asian Americans are still talking about the same crap they did in the 1980s.
Through tv, radio, music, movies, magazines advertisements etc. Our society teaches that White men and women are beautiful and desirable, That Black men are lazy, criminals. Black women are overly sexual and aggressive. That Latino men are stupid, foreign, gangsters. That Latino women are overly sexual, foreign, maids. That Asian women are overly sexual, foreign, sell outs. That Asian men are ugly, weak and foreign. No wonder we c Asian American women ONLY dating white men. And Rebbecca don't give me this personality, interest, outlook on life, sense of humor BS. If that was the case why don't Asian American Women date high percentages of other types of men????? why is it they ONLY white men if they do date outside their race????? Even in areas with high numbers of minorities like CA,NY. Don't be so naive. We are all influenced by the messages of our society. Take a look around its everywhere....
"Actually, I think there was a topic that stretched for over 200 comments. Same topic, of course. Ahhhhh, good to see the Asian Americans are still talking about the same crap they did in the 1980s."We will still be talking about this in the 2020s and 2040s.
My current girlfriend knows my history and that I love her for who she is regardless of race. She also knows that I have held out looking for a great Asian girlfriend first because of cultural and, dare I say it, racial reasons.Since they were too busy chasing white men, I had nowhere else to turn but to find a great woman regardless of race.I'm happy even though she isn't Asian and she has respected my reasons to find an Asian girl first. She doesn't hold it against me.In response to the first question, I don't think it's the location at all. All I need to know are two points:1.) If she's born here or Americanized (1.5 or 2nd gen).2.) If she has a boyfriend/husband.Chances are, the first thing that comes to mind is that he's white regardless of location.I also love how the knee-jerk reaction from Asian women is to either go the "we're compatible and colorblind" or "I can do whatever I want" route. That much is true but then it begs the response that 1.) black and Latinos aren't compatible with Asians and 2.) just because you can do something doesn't mean it's a good fuckin' idea. I can drive with my feet if I wanted to but it doesn't mean it doesn't have an ramifications.God, the social ignorance of Asian women is so telling.
All of this stuff is true.. Many of these blogs are just simply hilarious!! HA ha!! What these blogs reflect is how shallow and closed minded many Americans are in society.. The world has become even smaller.. Yet, people should become more harmonious regardless of ethnicity...Yet as for the U.S....What a sad reflection to always be fixated on race no matter what the situation.. Too bad and too sad!!! Great and interesting blogs nevertheless!! By the way, i am a mixed race African American due to ancestry... That is what makes the world great... There is beauty in every ethicity... We all are here for a reason.. A person should love someone of any ethnicity..
The "deserved inheritance of nasty stereotypes" was Rob, above.Think--from what I have seen, the stereotype of Asian women as "sell outs" is one held by Asian men. (See Model Minority forum discussions for poignant examples.)Uh... I don't think I'm naive at all. All I'm saying is that I think it's a more nuanced discussion than gene-pool purity vis-a-vis white dominance, one that should include gender issues--and not just from a male perspective.
I'm going to break it down very easily for everyone and explain why the interracial disparity is so large. While I don't have all the answers, I majored in Sociology in college and wrote about this issue was my college thesis. Apparently, it was interesting enough for the college humanities board to ask if I would considering writing a book so it can be used in my college Asian American studies class but that sounds like alot of work.1.) Asian women are dating and marrying out at such massive rates because, simply put, Asian women don't need Asian men. If all Asian American men died out, Asian women would be fine when it comes to dating because races would be just fine in picking them up. There are plenty of white/black/Latino men lusting after Asian women so Asian women have their pick. Other female ethnicities have proven that, while they're fine with interracial dating, they largely prefer their own race. It has also been observed in dating surveys that the Asian women demographic is the only ones that has no preference for their own men. Additionally, they've found out that Asian women actually have a preference for white men, not Asian men. Sorry, Asian guys. We're relegated to 2nd class. Deal with it. However, I would like to add why Asian women get hit on much more often by non-Asian men. First, there are more non-Asian men than Asian men in this country and law of numbers apply. Second, when non-Asian men see so many Asian women with non-Asian men, it gives them the impression that Asian women would rather be with them than Asian men. I've seen this first hand. I hang out with my buddies after work and we always have a white mousy co-worker with us. When we talk to non-Asian women, he'll clam up and keep to himself. When an Asian woman sits down at the bar, his head picks up and his chest puffs out. He has become "Charisma Man." I've talked to two other white friends who have dated Asian women but are married to white women that in the white male community, Asian women are seen as "easy targets" and "home runs." Not necessarly easy "one-night stands" or slutty but rather the least likely to shoot down a white man. In essence, white men believe Asian women are glad that a white man is talking to them. On a insulting level, Asian women are viewed as less picky, bitchy, and demanding than white women. This also tends to attract the bottom feeding white men who aren't up to par. Not being insulting or anything but the old saying is that white men who date Asian women are the ones who aren't social or "good" enough to date white women.It's gotten so bad that everyone have noticed that Asian women are easy as proven in this video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NS1s408UlcThis brings me to my next point.2.) Inadvertent promotion of Asian male emasculation by Asian women. When society at large sees so many Asian women with non-Asian men as well as Asian women bashing Asian men (Asian women cannot deny that there are many of these, all Asian men know of at least one), they'll start to believe that Asian men just don't cut it when it comes to being a romantic rival. This causes even more headaches for Asian men as their sexuality and masculinity are constantly questioned. I've faced this myself, abiet jokingly, but it can lead to a lashing out in anger or:3.) Demoralization. I've frequently heard from Asian women who are dating white men that Asian men don't hit or flirt with them; that they're too shy. Be that as it may, it's true. Part of it is due to culture. Like I said before, since there are more non-Asian men that are privy to Asian women, the odds of them getting hit on by non-Asian men are much higher. To add to that, there are many Asian men who are shy but have also become extremely ddemoralized by this fact in seeing so many Asian women with non-Asian men. They start to feel as if Asian women have abandoned them, don't love them, or that Asian women don't find them attractive. If your own race doesn't find you attractive, how can any other race find you attractive? Ever wonder why Asian men don't hit on you, maybe it's because you'll flat out reject them because they think you'd rather have a white man.I'm not denying that Asian women can do whatever they wish but one has to realize that there are social ramifications. I'm sure we've all heard of Chaos Theory, or the Butterfly Effect. If not, it's the idea that something as small as a butterfly flapping it's wings is enough to affect ocean currents in another part of the world. If something so small can affect the bigger picture, how irresponsible must one be to believe that half of 1.5 and 2nd generation women dating and marrying out isn't going to have an affect on the Asian American community, Asian men, or society at large? It's simply mind boggling to believe it wouldn't.In conclusion, I believe that the whole idea of Asian women complaining about constantly getting hit on by creepy white men or men in general is caused by Asian women alone. You've given non-Asian men an idea that you are more than willing to talk, date, or marry them. It's not really their fault. You've made the bed, now you'll have to sleep in it. What's sad is that most Asian women aren't bothered by it because it gives them a better chance of finding a boyfriend/husband, they just have to weed out the creepy ones first. In essence, instead of looking for a spouse, potential partners come to you.Asian men in North America:I have this to add. You're relegated to 2nd class. Yes, it's not fair but life isn't fair. That's all there is to it. I can offer you some pointers since I've traveled all over the world for work and I've seen quite a few things about the international dating scene.If you want an Asian woman who will give you preference over a white guy, I suggest you go to Asia. Over there, they'll still love you for who you are. There's a bonus if you're an North American born Asian as you're foreign enough to be exotic but familiar enough to be safe. Also, you're also viewed as less sexist than the local men. This is especially true in Japan and Korea. In Great Britain, which includes Ireland and Scotland, Asian women date white men very often but there is a reason. The ratio of Asian men to women is almost 5:1 so they have no choice. Almost all the Asian women are scrambling to date and marry the few Asian men there. Interestingly enough, the main reason is since there are so few Asian men there, they're the ones who are considered "exotic" and since they're the same race, Asian women feel Asian men are easier to snatch. Unfortunatly, there have been side effects. Asian men over there have started to gain inflated egos because of this and are disloyal at times so if you're looking to start a family with a great Asian lady, you'll have a great British Asian woman who loves you as an Asian man. Plus, the accent is great.If you want a Latin women, the ones in North America are perfectly fine but South America is very friendly to Asian men. In fact, the interracial dating disparity is skewed in favor of Asian men as there are no real negative connotations associated with Asian men. In fact, Asian men are viewed very highly as they are very loving, educated, and place family first.If you want a white woman, the ones in North America are also willing to give you a try. A beautiful white friend of mine always said she never dated Asian men because she thought they never found white girls attractive. I said it's not that they're not interested but that they're very intimidated by white women because they don't think they find Asian men attractive. Talk about some serious miscommunication! She's currently married to a Korean American man. Also, Europe is great and where I spent the bulk of my time while abroad working. While they might not be going out of their way to date Asian men (except French women), European women are much more open minded about dating Asian men.In essence, North America is the only place on Earth where Asian men have a very negative social stigma attached to them.I've seen many Asian men who feel we should just suck it up and work harder than any other man. That's the mentality I've been going by but don't be surprised if you're relegated to 2nd class. You are and I'm not joking. You'll have to work twice as hard to land an Asian woman than a white guy. Someone said jokingly that if he has to work twice as hard to land an Asian woman, he might as well date a white woman. That leads to my last and final point: backlashI don't condone this type of behavior but while I've noticed more support to interracial dating, I've also noticed a large segment of animosity directed at Asian women from Asian men. These aren't just bitter Asian men who can't get a date but Asian men with wives and girlfriends. Their reasoning for being angry? They feel it is a direct affront to their Asian brothers. They're not angry for themselves but rather Asian men as a whole. We all form our own communities be it cliques, Asian men/women, Korean/Japanese/Chinese/Thai, Asian Americans, Americans, human beings, etc.Two of my cousins refuse to date Asian women and constantly degrade them in front of other races. In fact, many encourage negative Asian female stereotypes. Most of their Asian friends are all dating/married to non-Asian girls. As the Asian American community matures, I believe that this issue is going to blow up in our faces as the gender conflict gets larger. Right now, Asian Americans have chosen to ignore the fire that's raging down the street. By the time it gets to your doorstep, it'll be too late to stop.
Sorry, I forgot to address three more points.First, the term "sellout." Second, why 95% of the non-Asian spouses are white. Third, blaming the issue solely on Asian male sexism.I've heard the term "sellout" dished out more than once in my lifetime when it comes to this topic. Hell, Asian women have heard it quite often as well. The reason why many use this term to refer to Asian women is because of the feeling of abandonment of Asian men and culture as a whole. In essence, they've "sold us out" to be with white men rather than hash it and struggle with Asian men. Part of it has to do with the desire to abandon Asian culture completely. After all, the best way to promote and retain Asian culture is to be with an Asian man unless that Asian man happens to be adopted by whites. So, it's an indirect statement that dating or marrying a white man is a sign of wishing to remove oneself of their Asian heritage. Lastly, let's face it, white men are considered gods in this country and most of the world. They retain all of the financial, social, and media power in this country. They've also been enforcing the ideal for of beauty is white beauty. Therefore, when Asian women marry white men, it's viewed as a social climb or "selling out" their own community for a small chance to be included with white society. It's no different in the black community except they use a different term, "Uncle Tom."If the situation were reversed, I'm sure Asian men would be called sellouts as well. Hell, they already are. Several Asian women have called me a sellout for dating white women because they believe I wish to remove myself from Asian culture. The reason why I understand why they used this term is because they're not always off the mark. The reason why is because I used to be the same type of person. If Asian men had white women, who are considered the epitome of female beauty, oogling them, I'm sure they'd welcome it without a problem. Therefore, why would Asian women be any different? Would Asian women ever complain if the epitome of male beauty, white men were oogling them? No. The only thing is, I'm brave to admit it from an Asian male perspective. Asian women are not and are attempting to tread two different paths. One, blame Asian men for everything and two, that they're better than that and spend an ordinate amount of time trying to convince themselves that they're above constant media bombardment.Another interesting observation, which is not lost on anyone who has witnessed this phenomenon, is that if Asian women keep talking about colorblind love, why is it that being colorblind only applies to white men? Is it because black and Latino men aren't compatible with Asian women when it comes to interests. I, for sure, know there are many black and Latino men who are interested in Asian women so why isn't the interest returned? Is it because there is a certain limit to how far Asian women will go in order to find the right spouse? Are they not worth fighting for? In almost all Asian families, it is the wish of parents for their children to marry other Asians. The priority is for them to marry within their own cultural group first and then ethnicity. That places Asian men on at 10. While white men are somewhat accepted, they're placed around 9 when it comes to acceptability. Black and Latino men are placed almost near 2 when it comes to acceptability.This is particularly interesting because it shows that Asian women are only willing to go so far to gain acceptance for their spouse so the real explanation from Asian women should be "I am colorblind when it comes to dating and marriage -to a certain extent-"Lastly, we constantly hear that replies of Asian men being sexist and not waiting to deal with another Asian family. As the old saying goes, when you marry an Asian, you marry their family as well. I know some Asian women that choose to marry out because they don't want to have all this pressure upon them to be the perfect wife. That's fair enough. I've noticed that white families are much more tolerant of "flawed" daughters-in-law and are pretty lax when it comes to demands. In essence, Asian women are attempting to escape from the confines of Asian culture and society. That's not even a gripe of mine. Sometimes, people just want to deal with more than they have to.Fair enough.What's this about Asian men being more sexist? I find it gravely insulting because it presupposes the idea that non-Asian men are either not sexist or less prone to sexism. While I am fully willing to admit that Asian men in *Asia* are very sexist, there is a clear line between Asian and Asian American men. We're as American as the white guy next to us. What gives Asian women the right to imply that sexism is tied to race rather than individuals? Then we have the complaint that Asian men are attempting to control Asian women by dictating who they should date and marry. I have a newsflash for you, as much as Asian men grumble, it's not stopping you from doing anything. Half of Asian American women have a white spouse so it's obviously not working.One thing I don't see is Asian women attempting to acknowledge any fault of their own in this situation. It's always the Asian men's fault and as long as Asian women are free to do what they want, all is good in the world. It's completely reckless and irresponsible. I'm not attempting to be "chicken little" by predicting doom and gloom but this is also part of a larger problem in understanding why the biggest obstacle to Asian American growth, enlightenment, and civil rights are.....Asian Americans themselves, not "The Man."
Rob,interesting points. I wouldn't cite a YouTube post as a scholarly study on interracial dating in Black America. black men still outmarry at a less than 10% rate and black women at less than 5%. It seemed very much tongue-in-cheek and loaded with sarcasm.I think the potential damage in the AA community due to 'gender conflict' is a concern, but we must remember that the MAJORITY of AA women STILL marry AA men.The alleged 'accesibility' perception of AA women is an interesting point. To the extent that non-asian men see AA women with non-asian men, the perception is created that this is acceptable. I think that the converse - or alternative - view is even more important: to the extent that AA men do NOT see non-asian women with AA men, the AA men perceive that it is unacceptable for them to pursue these women. Quite possibly, the 'value' perception of AA men would rise in all 'markets' if AA men aggressively began seeking mates amongst non-asian women. Given the [alleged] rifts between BM and BW, it would seem to me that AA men might step into that [perceived] void nicely. Maybe even the 'left over' white women (abandoned by their asian women-seeking men) would welcome attention from AA men...but they are already being chased by B and L men - return to my option above!You didn't really delve into an explanation of your amendment point 2 very much. Why are B and L men 'near 2' on the acceptability chart and by extension, B and L women?I do have to agree with you on the 'sexist AA man' issue. Not to say that there are not sexist AA men, but it seems to me that for those raised here...or for those raised with their [assumingly] enlightened sisters whereever, they would hold similar views regarding social status\strata and gender roles as their sisters. So why isn't the AA female friend of the 'cool AA female' dating the brother of 'cool AA female' since he was raised in the same environment that made her 'cool AA female' so 'cool' to begin with? Was 'cool' left out of his upbringing?Rebecca,could you please offer some more on your insight/observations on the"gene-pool purity vis-a-vis white dominance, one that should include gender issues"aspects that you've mentioned in your post above? Do you find that the males of your AA friends' families do not subscribe to the same gender philosophies that the females of those families subscribe to AND in a more ethno-specific way than the white males raised in comparable settings? Do you find this variance to be only between white and asian males or is it between white males and all other males? In my observation, to the [perceived] extent that white men have dominated the development of this society, then with that development 'credit' comes the 'blame' for the male chauvinism that would ostensibly be your nemesis. White men are pigs too.In short, many 'people of color' grumble about white people all the time, yet asians/asian americans seem to pair their grumbling with great efforts to associate with\affix themselves to those very same white people more than any other 'people of color' in the US.We have a conundrum here.
No, I meant the comment at the very end of the video. It's gotten to the point that other communities are noticing that Asian women are with everyone except Asian men.
ahh! thanks.
Let me extend this a little further:If you meet an Asian American woman who lives in San Francisco, you usually assume that the Asian American woman is dating a poor quality, insecure white man.The best quality white men date white women. The fact is that secure people like themselves and people who are like themselves. Secure Asians date other Asians. Secure whites date other whites. Look around. Ask the white men who date Asians how many white women they were able to date before they started dating Asian women. They date Asian women because they have no choice. Other people do not want to date them.
Also the most racist white women date white men irrespective of culture. The fact is that secure people like themselves and people who are like themselves. Also bigoted southern whites date other southern whites. Look around. Confederate flag wavers will date other confederate flag wavers.
Eh, as much as I dislike the idea that interracial dating for both Asian men and women is "cool" or something that should be embraced as a showcase of racial barriers being broken (they're not), I don't agree with the idea that idea that all of these couples are social rejects.Some of these couples are fairly good looking and are pretty secure with themselves but the stereotype that almost all of the AF/WM couples have some weird social stigma about them is pretty much true.
"Some of these couples are fairly good looking and are pretty secure with themselves but the stereotype that almost all of the AF/WM couples have some weird social stigma about them is pretty much true."Just like the stereotype that AM/WF couples involve trophy white wives.
I was reading this because i am WM who likes AA women. I just have this preference and didn't know it was such a big deal. I was surprised at different people saying we were just perverts and that AAF being with WMs was always with ugly and fat and undesirable WMs. I am actually good looking, educated, and can easily get a white woman. Whatever the reason for the hate against it, ALL men go by looks first. Women go by status and personality. It has nothing to do with being perverted, just on what you LIKE. There are plenty of WMs who date WFs and others, this is just my preference. It seems that many women say that men should look at their personality and intelligence first. This is just the way men are. Women definitely do not look at intelligence first as being attractive. NEITHER sex does. In fact, that is what she said not necessarily what she meant. We are (sexes) different and it needs to be noted, not that we (men) are perverts. That's dumb. It does not matter if you are an Asian male, a WM, a BM. You can ALL attract any race of women you want. As a man, MAN up, improve your self constantly and most women will find that attractive; and that is any race. I just don't see how a WM having a preference for AAF is perverted. Everybody has preferences so don't hate. I like black hair, that's the first thing I notice. I look at other things, but people just like some things more.
Ken,leaping over Jesse's "Popeye" post (I am that I am and that's all that I am!), could you cover a bit more of your 'rating' system and how you derived that?And the other thing that puzzles me is how it is that AA women are raised in a "soclally enlightened" manner - or so we are told which is key to their attraction to similarly raised men who share their 'interests, sense of humor, outlook, goals, etc' - and their brothers and I mean that literally; their male siblings are not. Do most AA households operate under a dual childrearing philosophy or policy? I've not seen that.
A 'secure' person should feel comfortable being themselves while also appreciating those who are different from them. A 'secure' person is not afraid of change or something outside of their 'safe' boundaries. A secure person is willing to date anyone *they* want to regardless of other people's opinions.Your definition of what a 'secure' person is makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Your definition of secure sounds like a bigoted coward.
OK, numbers police here. Pull over, Eddy. You wrote, the MAJORITY of AA women STILL marry AA men. I have to differ, especially with your added emphasis. Recent immigrants might grant some credence to your remark, but for those groups for which there is data -- such as 1.5 generation Asians -- they are certainly outmarrying at an average of about 60%, depending on the ethnicity. (Break this down between genders, and you’ll see that the outmarriage rate of women skews the average greatly toward the high end.)The requisite and laughably naive "c'mon Asian guys, man up and stand up for yourself"-type remarks aside, there's some great discussion here. -- too much to respond to. But what resonated with me in particular was rob's post above, following from where he writes, I find it gravely insulting because it presupposes the idea that non-Asian men are either not sexist or less prone to sexism...(snip).I inevitably get dealt the sexist card when this topic comes up, only because I stand firm against people who say that there is "no accounting for taste" when it comes to Asian women who favor dating white men. Well, guess what: there is indeed accounting for taste -- a taste, which concertedly or not, is inculcated to favor a group that holds power in all ranks from hiring to promotion to publicity in all fields, whether it's media, publishing, advertising, finance, education, or politics. Like it or not, Asian women simply cannot divorce a preference for dating white men with its related economic and political ramifications -- those aggregate ramifications are simply too pronounced. They collectively form the elephant in the room, and those Asian women with white men who speak of their dating preferences as a live-and-let-live matter of choice are, I think, turning a blind eye to something which everyone else -- white men included -- is keenly aware.As an aside (and OK, here is some hating to a particular group of sisters) -- I wonder how many Asian men in this discussion have heard one end of the "oh, I would never date an Asian man!" utterance from an Asian woman. I rarely -- if ever -- hear such a remark from Asian men, even when not in mixed company, but I routinely hear this from other Asian women. Is the act of shunning the so-called sexism and patriarchal domination of the immigrant Asian family such a gender-selected mission that Asian women are the only ones capable of being enlightened? Could you and would you -- for a second -- believe that your fellow brothers could be as enlightened and informed as you are?(Tim T, 2nd gen Asian male)
I've heard someone make a good point before and I'll repeat it here:Nobody, and I mean *nobody* is a "sell out", because everyone owns him or herself.Asian men do not 'own' asian women, the women own themselves. White men do not 'own' white women, black do not own black, etc.Nobody is the 'property' of their community. I sure as hell would resent being 'owned' by someone I don't know about you but if someone told me that, I'd tell them to f*ck off, and I guess that's why Asian women don't bother posting here, the fact that you are saying they are 'property' to be fought over offends them.
Why bother even forming minority communities then if the community doesn't own Asian men and women? Hrm?The idea isn't that men or women of each race own each other but rather that the community or the race, owns them.Moving out of the race or community could be viewed as turning your back on the race and community and when you have such a huge segment of Asian women leaving, it's veiwed as selling out the race and community.Hence, the divide. I know alot of people like to trump up the idea that "no one owns me but myself" perspective but it's just stupid to believe it has no effect when so many people have that mentality. We might as well disband Asian America with that attitude.
Also, I'd like to point out how little people understand cause and effect. In physics, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.Asian women don't understand how their interracial dating and marriage has caused white society to view Asian men as emasculated.Asian women also don't understand that when their masculinity is threatened because another race is encroaching on their community, they will start to flail desperately in an attempt to stop it which usually amounts to "control" women.However, Asian women resent this and then proceed to date out more which, in turn, puts more and more pressure on Asian men to "control" them.It's a huge circle. The more and more Asian women date out, the more emasculated the Asian male becomes.It's not a simple idea that Asian men are attempting to control Asian women just for the sake of it. When anyone is under threat, they will lash out in every way possible and resent Asian women.There is nothing more dividing than the interracial dating issue in Asian America.It happens with every race. A perfect example is the syndrome of the angry black woman so it's not limited to men. For the black community, it isn't even that bad. Only 9-10% of black men are married interracially compared to 35% of all Asian women in America. 50% of the American born Asian women are married to white men.Still don't think it's a problem for the community?Don't be stupid.
Tim T,thanks for your post.I was giving the benefit of the doubt in my numbers. What I've read says nominally 30% of Asian women (in the US) are married to non-Asian men (and of that 98% are married to white men) and I have seen posted here numbers of 50% of AA (or 1.5 gen or other 'categorizers') so given the somewhat fuzzy nature of the numbers, I called it somewhere between 30 - 50% and giving the women the 'benefit of the doubt' I picked the lower number - hence "the majority of AA women are married to AA men". Maybe it is better stated that the majority of Asian women in the US are maried to Asian men. But if you stats are correct, they simply bolster my point and reignite my questions, which you also reiterated. Now I have heard Asian women say "I'll never date an Asian guy" (or black guy or latino guy) far more often than I have ever heard an Asian guy say "I'll never date an Asian gal" (but I can't say the same for black women or latino women - this prohibition seems to be 'gender indifferent' and deserves attention!). What 'tools' or "contaminants" are in place which makes it impossible (or even improbable) that an Asian guy raised in the same US household as his sister will arrive at adulthood as a sexist pig but somehow the daughter will not arrive at adulthood accepting those same gender dynamics? And HOW is it possible that this could occur in the US yet somehow white families (and apparantly ONLY white families as no blacks or latinos seem qualified to pass muster - except on TV) don't have the same 'sexist' dynamics influence their relationship views? Is it due to the nasty lingering odor of Asian cultural machismo? Chauvinism? But don't these characteristics exist in abundance in Europe? In the US?This is especially interesting in light of how frequently I also hear (sometimes from the same mouths) of the 'problem' of non-Asian men - typically white - having a fetish for Asian women.I can't seem to get any answers on those items.
The whites and blacks were able to form a separate indentity here in the US due to primitive transport and communication modes. They had lost touch with their ancestral homes. The development of transport and communications has and will conspire to prevent the development of the Asian American identity. Due to internet, old hatreds will never be forgotten. Koreans will not like the Japanese, Chinese wont like the Japanese and the Cambodians will not like the Thais and these old suspicions, if not outright hatred will be carried on to the new world. The whole concept of an Asian American community is a myth except for those folks who came before the early part of the twentieth century. It existed in the imagination of a lot of us as an ideal, but in the modern world would be increasingly unattainable. The only solution is to make whites a minority in this country and that wont happen quickly unless the emasculated groups such as African American women and Asian American men go abroad and marry foreign women of their ethnicity in large numbers.
I do not live in SF bay area and I am not an Asian American woman but I am a white woman who is engaged to a Korean man. We live on the East coast and I have noticed that people do assume Asian woman are more likely to be dating a white man then an Asian man but I have also noticed that people seem to always assume Asian men only date Asian women. People have commented that my fiancee and I don't look like we shold be together... whatever that means. I don't know why people make these assumptions but I think anyone should be able to date whom ever makes them happy and people should never make assumptions.
OK, Asian women adore White men AND WHITE MEN ONLY. White men, or nothing. At least thats what all the white dudes in here say, especially when they throw up stats.
The reason why you haven't gotten any answers is because it's easier for Asian women to offer generic defensive "feel good" statements which only serve to make you look like the bitter angry man if you question them any further. Some popular ones include: "I'm colorblind. We just like each other for our personalities."Either that or they'll use strawman arguments such as how US raised, 3rd generation men are just as sexist as the oldest generation Asians in Asia.I mean, give me a break. Nothing is a hotter topic and commodity in Asia than Asian American men because they're already known to be less sexist. Also, they're foreign enough to be exotic but familiar enough to be safe.If you're an Asian man that prefers to date/marry Asian women, get your ass to Asia. At least they're interested in you for who you are and there is no annoying white worship to deal with.My problem is that I choose to remain an American and date/marry an Asian woman so it's already tough on me. Asian men must be realistic. There are not enough Asian women for all the Asian men who want them. I believe this has given Asian women an inflated ego which has resulted in them thumbing their nose at Asian men.However, I'm willing to part with my "American-ness" rather than having to feel the need to work twice as hard as an Asian American woman.The moment white men stop caring or paying Asian women any attention, Asian women will flood back and say "We were always with you! Go Asian men!"Pfffft.Actually, Tim, you and Eddy are both correct. Technically most Asian American women ARE with Asian men (55%) but only by a very very small margin.
And the room awaits some reply from the ladies...
As harmless as they may seem, the white people on this board need to stop imput their own blase attitude about interracial dating as it doesn't affect their community as much as it does a minority community. If anything, interracial dating has caused minority community more intercommunity strife and conflict than helped.Asian guys, guys, guys. I think all Asian American guys should just get jobs here but get transferred over to Asia. That way, you'll get paid like a transferred employee rather than a local hire. With all the Asian men leaving because Asian women are too busy chasing white men, we can finally see the effect on the Asian American community.Maybe then, Asian women will turn around, look at the shrinking Asian population, and go "damn, we're boned."Asian men need to show that they, too, can rot the community from within. Let's take that power away from Asian women! Yay!
Godot, you won't find them in here talking about this subject as Asian women aren't losing in the situation. If the situation were reveresed, this thread would be full of Asian women and devoid of Asian men.Eh, such is life but I do believe that karma exists. Who knows? Maybe 50 years from now, the situation will be reversed.Even if there were some Asian women in this thread, they would use the excuses mentioned above in that 1.) love is colorblind or 2.) it's all the Asian man's fault.This topic is like the Asian male's version of "Waiting to Exhale."
In response to the original questions, if an Asian American girl said she had a boyfriend or husband, I'd assume he was white. If an Asian American man said he had a girlfriend or wife, I'd assume she was Asian.Doesn't matter what city they're in.
Here are some statistics but I'm not sure how old they are or if they're reliable.http://www.asian-nation.org/interracial.shtmlI think the statistic of 35% of ALL Asian women in the US are married to white men are fairly reliable.
RP, you said something very telling - if not about the details of the situation, at least about your perception of it - you said"...you won't find them in here talking about this subject as Asian women aren't losing in the situation. If the situation were reveresed, this thread would be full of Asian women and devoid of Asian men."This implies (or is it that I infer) that you perceive that an Asian woman with a white guy is 'gaining' and that under similar circumstances an Asian man would be 'gaining' as well if he could get a white woman.While on an individual basis I will readily accept that a specific white guy could be 'better' for a specific Asian woman than a specific Asian guy [To Asian Women: this is my acknowledgement that the 'a better match' argument can be valid on a case by case basis] I would be unwilling to accept the idea that A white guy is better for AN asian woman than AN asian guy (or than any other type of guy - black, latino, middle eastern, native american, etc) as a fundamental 'truism'. Your phrasing, RP seems to buy into this 'inherent gain in a white guy' theory. It seems to me that in accepting this 'theory' you ALSO accept its inherent 'opposite' - that asian guys are inherently inferior to white guys. If you think like that it is probable that most women will agree with you and you will have rigged the experiment to arrive at your desired answer.
No, I didn't mean I believed it but rather that Asian women believed this.Also, when I used an example of how Asian women aren't losing in the situation, it's the fact that they have two large dating pools to choose from where one of them happens to be the biggest in the US, whites.Asian men aren't so lucky. While many white women are privy to Asian men, it's nowhere near the same for Asian women/White men because there seems to be a naturaul fetish for each other.To Asian women, we're simply replaceable. Until white men pay no interest to Asian women or Asian women specifically look for Asian men (much like how other ethnic women view their men), this problem will never be balanced.
RP, you called it a "natural fetish" (mutual interest between Asian women and white men).Do you think it is really an inherent trait or do you think there is a socialization aspect that makes far too many Asian (American) women reject non-white men out of hand?Who teaches them this? It would seem unlikely that Asian American cultures would do so, that would be internally self-destructive. How could it benefit Asian (American) cultures/communities to 'teach' their women to want white men? If they, Asian American cultures are doing so, are they doing it unwittingly? How?And if white culture is teaching them this, then why wouldn't white culture teach similar thinking to other non-white women? Or if it has TRIED to do so, why has it not been nearly as effective?I ask these questions not to put you on the spot, or 'bust your chops' but I think if we don't try to explore the root of the issue all we will do is have name calling and in-fighting between AA women and men and eventually between the AA community and other non-white communities - neither of which will help in the long run.
Guys, we aren't replying because we're tired of hearing crap like this from our own guys: "In conclusion, I believe that the whole idea of Asian women complaining about constantly getting hit on by creepy white men or men in general is caused by Asian women alone."Please, give me a break. Stop bitching about not being able to get a date and blaming women for it, and go ASK SOME WOMEN OUT.For the record, I'm an Asian American woman. My boyfriend is Asian American. I've dated Latino, black and white men as well (One of my long term boyfriends was Jewish), but mostly (like 80 percent of the time) I've dated Asian American men.Though my preference is for Asian men, I haven't completely ruled out men from other backgrounds. Personality, compatablity, sense of humor blah blah blah are the top priority. I'm not saying the "love is color blind" line is a good excuse. I think it's naive of anyone to say anything is color blind cuz we sure as hell don't live in a colorblind world. Just saying that it is quite possible that it's for love, you know?Now, when I was with a white man, I got the evil eye from Asian folk. And you know what, I give the evil eye too sometimes when I see the white man/ asian gal combo even though I was once in that combo and even though some of my friends and family members are in that combo and I know those relationships to be based on love and combatability.Why do I do that? I guess because it's such a common pairing, and I do get an icky, sellout feeling about. It's questionable when you don't see Asian women paired with other kinds of men. I think it does have a lot to do with how we're socialized when we're growing up. It depends on what kind of population you grew up in. White is still the dominant race in this country and lots of Asians grew up being one of only a few Asian people surrounded by white people. We're still only 4 or 5 percent of the population. Maybe you grew up wanting to be white cuz you didn't want to be different. You wanted to be like evyerone else. It also comes from our parents' own racist ideas. I know my parents have a hiearchy of the races. At the top is Asian (Chinese specifically) and at the bottom are blacks and arabs. If I was going to date outside of Asian, they would prefer white. They have told me this to my face.Now, we all seem to know Asian American women who give the "I can't date asian men because they remind me of my brother" line. And I can see why you are angry about that, becuase I'm angry about that too. What the hell is that supposed to mean? That just makes no sense. Do you hear latinos or black people or other minorities saying stuff like that? It makes me sad to hear Asian women say that. They obviously need to meet more Asian men.I think the problem is that people (men AND women) need to stop acting like white is the prize.To the Asian women who don't want to date Asian men, I always say: It's your loss. That's more Asian men for me.
Girlfriend!! Two swinging double snaps and a mocha twist!! Thank you for your candor. I never doubted the capacity for love - just love - to be at the core of things in some (many?) instances. I just doubted it being key to a decision to 'never' go out with any type of guy.So, you did hit upon some underlying issues that skews the table in favor of white men. The prevalence of racial heirarchies in Asian culture certainly sets a poor foundation upon which to engage a multicultural world. The desire to 'fit in' and the perception that this 'desire' equates to being white only serves to reinforce that negative outcome.I agree with you, we must stop thinking of 'white' as the prize and only treat it as one flavor out of many - no better; no worse.