On Asian American Dating

August 3, 2007

Just a thought before the weekend: if I tell you that I — an Asian American woman who lives in San Francisco — have a boyfriend, what ethnicity would you assume he was?

A friend says that if he met an Asian American woman in the Bay Area, and she mentioned she had a boyfriend, he would assume her boyfriend was white. Do you agree? What does this say about dating in our community? Does it make a difference if the woman lives in another place, say Chicago or New York? What assumptions do you make about girlfriends of Asian American men? And what about gay Asian Americans?


Lisa Wong Macabasco

Former Editor in chief

Lisa Wong Macabasco joined Hyphen in 2006; she has worked as the magazine's features editor, managing editor, and editor in chief. She has written for Mother Jones, the San Francisco Bay Guardian, AsianWeek, Audrey, Filipinas and ColorLines’ RaceWire. She graduated from U.C. Berkeley and Columbia University’s Graduate School of Journalism and co-founded the National Asian American Student Conference. She was formerly an editor at AsianWeek newspaper and an editor in the marketing department of the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art.



Oh, please.In order to speak from your high horse for such a long time without your ass getting sore; you need a saddle. Your "saddle" is to pawn off all detractors or complaints from Asian men as being "bitter" and "dateless." It’s typical but not surprising.Six of Asian male friends complain about the situation for Asian men and how Asian women have pretty much shunned them from greener pastures. I have more shocking news for you; all of them are married or have steady girlfriends. So, why are they complaining then? They're concerned for their future children and other single Asian men who are down on their luck and demoralized.That's how a community *should* be acting, people. When the Chinese first came to this country, we formed our own enclaves and Tongs to protect ourselves from whites. Sure, you'll have many who are just single and bitter but why is it so difficult to believe that many of these Asian guys who are complaining are simply concerned about their other brethren? Or how this is going to affect the growth and strength of our community? This gender divide is causing more problems that one can imagine. For instance, I know many Asian men that refuse to stick up for Asian women for this reason alone. They view this situation as a betrayal of the utmost degree and their own rational for not supporting Asian women is thus deemed warranted.Has anyone ever even contemplated the idea that this issue is extremely demoralizing to the point where they're afraid of asking Asian women out because it's perceived that they don't date Asian men? Hrm. Pull your head out of your ass, learn to rotate your brain, and view all aspects of the situation before you come to a simplistic conclusion befitting a shit-chucking orangutan.
Rice Patty, you and your other friends who think this way are partly responsible for this gender divide. Yes, I've contemplated that it's demoralizing. And yes, I know all about how Asian men are portrayed in the media and this society. I have male Asian friends too. Now, what have you and your friends done to stop blaming women?
No doubt it's contributing to the gender divide and causing more strife but while it's childish to say such, I will anyway."You started it."Do you honestly think this animosity and distrust towards Asian women would have even existed if Asian women didn't marry 50% out of their race? Hrm? Every action will have an equal and opposite reaction.While we do acknowledge that some Asian men are lashing out in unreasonable ways, at least we acknowledged a problem. The first step is to always identify and acknowledge the problem before you can solve it.The problem is, Asian women haven't even acknowledged it or even care about the effect it's having on Asian men. They don't state that there is something "off." So, I believe Asian men are at least ahead in this respect.Personally, I only help other Asian men in every aspect whenever I can. That goes for employement, relationships, and social assistance. Until Asian women are more willing to support Asian men and evidence is plentiful, I believe their main form of assistance should come from white men.If it's wrong, it's wrong but that's the way I feel. I'm not going to lie about it.
Heh. I can assure you I'm not a white guy attempting to interject conflict into this thread.
Whoops. Forgot to put my handle on that last post.
"We are all a product of our environment and are influenced by it."Absloutely"What does our society tell us about AAW and AAM? What images does it portray? What themes does it reinforced on a daily basis? If you identify those then it will be easier to understand this situation."Hollywood and the media tell me that they would rather hire foreign whites from the UK and USA for roles in TV and movies over Asian Americans particularly Asian American men. They also tell me that they are very racist. When whites are displaced by foreigners as in computer science there is a hue and cry, but foreign whites displace Americans white, Asian or otherwise in Hollywood, no one gives a damn!!
"Through tv, radio, music, movies, magazines advertisements etc. Our society teaches that White men and women are beautiful and desirable,"Very clear. Recruitment of foreign whites from the UK and USA in Hollywood is at an all time high according to the Washington Examiner. If they cannot get a white American they go for a foreign white and give him or her American accent. Not very different from the Yellowface or black face shows of yesteryears."That Black men are lazy, criminals. Black women are overly sexual and aggressive."Although most rapes are committed by white men."That Latino men are stupid, foreign, gangsters. That Latino women are overly sexual, foreign, maids."In other countries Filipinas get the maid stereotype."That Asian women are overly sexual, foreign, sell outs. That Asian men are ugly, weak and foreign."True. More foreign than the white girls they are recruiting from England.No wonder we Asian American women ONLY dating white men. And Rebbecca don't give me this personality, interest, outlook on life, sense of humor BS. If that was the case why don't Asian American Women date high percentages of other types of men????? why is it they ONLY white men if they do date outside their race????? Even in areas with high numbers of minorities like CA,NY. Don't be so naive. We are all influenced by the messages of our society. Take a look around its everywhere...."I think the fastest growing group of couples in this country is the Black Male/Asian female couple. And they are being increasingly portrayed in the tv shows partly because Asian women/white men couples will not sell to the majority of racist white women.
Is n't it possible that the problem is not with Asian women but with white women being racist and would not date non-white men? Why would they? They enjoy the privilege of being white.Second, why aren't the Asian men competing with white men regarding mail order brides? Fasicnating here in Singapore, Chinese men will complain about Filipina women dating white men, but themselves think that it is beneath their dignity to date Filipina women, most of whom are maids. So, the Asian men have to accept part of the blame. Go abroad and find yourselves wives...means a more non-white America..and it would undermine the racist America you all are complaining about...it would also serve the white men right.Another point. In Hawaii there is a lot more mixture, particularly AM/WF, because Asians dont worship whites and they are seen as equals. So, majority is not the issue. Here in Singapore, Asians are a majority but worship whites..one TV program even brazenly showed the virtues of a smooth white skin on June 15, 2007..hence most white women dont date white men. It depends on how you treat the cat. If you treat the cat like a human, it would jump on the dining table when you are having dinner. If you treat the cat as a cat, it would behave like a cat.
I am a strong, beautiful and intelligent Asian American Man. I am confident that I bring so much to a relationship and I am truly looking for an equal and a partner to live my life with regardless of race. However, Culture is very important to me and I am able to connect with women of my culture on a completely different level. It saddens me to see all this ignorance and dehumanizing practices. All of this infighting and pursuit of racial superiority is so damaging. However if anyone from the API community is weak-minded enough to date or marry someone for superficial and ignorant reasons such as stereotypes founded in racist and fetish ideas then that is their problem. I wish them the best of luck in their fundamentally flawed relationship. If you find yourself waking up to an unhappy and unhealthy relationship you can point it out to the fact that you pursued your partner or they pursued you because of some fantasy. Oh and invest in some good marriage and family counseling because chances are your children will witness your damaging relationship and need help as well. Drop the fantasy people and see individuals for who they are. And to all my API brothers and sisters out there, stop hating yourselves, stop hating each other stop fighting over the scraps in life, we deserve more. Ignore the hype; ignore what the mainstream wants you to think. You are strong and beautiful, do not let anyone tell you otherwise!
Besides a few tangents, this is some awesome thread. Someone should compile 'best-of' conversations and publish a book from it for future generations. I am sure the same old questions will be asked again 20 years later.
Glad to know that there is at least one non-racist white female...perhaps four or five..because the others have not disowned her!!!http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20046345,00.html
"You started it"? Wow, you're right, Rice Patty. That is very unreasonable.For the record I never argued that love is colorblind, as my comment got skewed, I said that there are additional factors that influence relationships. Also, while an obvious statement, it bears remembering: not all Asian Americans are alike. The guy that works in finance is not as likely to go for the punk girl (and vice versa). The strong, successful woman has fewer options open to her--of any ethnicity.I've only been picked-up on by one Asian American guy in my life, and he said, "I like your dress." (A bad line, no matter how you cut it.) Now, I don't have a hunchback or a pegleg, so what gives? I have a hard time believing that this is because Asian American women have inherited some Eve-like insult to humankind for all eternity, as some commenters seem to suggest.
Wow!! It's getting hot in here! Let's not make it personal. A couple of good points and I got some feedback on my questions. Thanks and a special thank you to Rebecca and girlfriend for stepping into the fray.I think a major shift would occur IF asian men were 'shown' their 'value'. I think asian men should start dating black and latino women. A 'common' comment is that black women are 'under-served' by a lack of eligible black men so there are 'openings' (Stay out of the gutter!!!). Asian men are noted for their family focus which should be a welcome trait. If asian men start dating 'other' women, then maybe asian women won't feel so 'cocky' (is that possible?) about knowing that when they 'return' from their white guy exploratory trek that asian men will be still there.A similar trend might occur amongst black men who upon seeing their 'sure thing' not so sure might stop going after white women (and now theoretically asians) and go after black women more (they already 'in' marry at better than 90%). Now this might further irritate white women who would find that the one market that they thought was locked up is not so closed as thought. Maybe they too will pursue asian men not wanting black women to have 'all the fun'. If that happens it will further spur asian women to go after them AND make white men gop defend their womenfolk and when the music stops....everyone is where they're supposed to be....OR people look a lot more alike than they do now and they get along better.To paraphrase: "Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've gotr til its gone".Another potential positive is that asian men might become less 'hesitant' about dealing with women of color (other than asian) and asian women, once they see asian men doing 'well' with other people of color maybe they will be a bit more inclusive (expansive?) about who they date and befriend.See, all types of positive outcomes!Rob, interesting point about discrimination by chinese against filipina women while simultaneously griping about being discriminated against. Pots calling kettles - but certainly not calling them 'black'.And Rebecca do you actually like getting 'picked up' and if so what lines work best? just in case the opportunity presents itself :-)Were all the other guys white? Does this happen often or rarely? (Being hit upon). If rarely, then we'll need a new thread.
I said it was childish, not that it was unfair to say "you started it." It is fair; absolutely fair.Do you honestly think this gender divide would even be in place if it wasn't for Asian women who "started it?" No one is trying to control you. We're wondering why you can't control yourselves. Do whatever the hell you want to to but Asian women consistently fail to grasp that they don't understand the repercussions. Like I said, repeatedly, is that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. When 50% of Asian American born women are marrying white men (let's not sugarcoat it with non-Asian men because it's honestly not.), does one honestly think there isn't going to be some type of reaction from Asian men or society in general?Simply put, Asian women are selfish. They consistently put their own issues and desires over anything else while it seems other ethnic women are more privy when it comes to standing by their own men.Like the Columbia University speed-dating research shows, almost all women from a racial demographic support interracial dating but *prefer* their race first but with Asian women, there is no preference. Sometimes, Asian mothers actually persuade Asian women to marry white men.Let's review, shall we?1.) It's not difficult for Asian men to encounter Asian women who refuse to date Asian men. Almost every Asian male knows one whereas my other friends don't know or haven't heard of a women from their race say the same.2.) It's very easy to backtrack and offer examples of Asian women dissing Asian men in everything from real life experiences or media. However, it's difficult to say the same for non-Asian women.3.) Non-Asian ethnic women feel a kinship towards their own men because their experiences are the same. This even applies to African American women who are the most assimilated race in America. They don't even have a unique language or culture like Asians and Latinos. (Yes, there are many cultures for Asians and Latinos but you get the idea.)4.) If you ever notice when Asian women talk about this subject, they'll always use a personal identifier. (Me, I, My, etc.) (It's MY life. Don't tell ME what to do, I want to do this.) There is never any mention of sympathy or acknowledgment of Asian men and their feelings because, in their eyes, as long as they're happy, everyone can take a long walk off a short cliff.5.) I've dated other ethnic women (black and Latin) and they've all stated that they've been searching for a great guy who's from their background but after months or even years of not being able to find one, they relented. They also hoped I wasn't offended but I told them it was on the contrary. The sheer desire and "loyalty" to their own men was extremely admirable.While there are problems on the Asian male side, I'm sick and tired of Asian women playing the "babe in the woods" routine and acting as if they're the victim of some white guy with yellow fever. Quit your whining. If Asian women as a whole didn't throw themselves or weren't privy to dating white men, they most likely wouldn't be constantly hovering over you, would they? The fact of the matter is that white men are the gods of this country. At least have the courage and strength to admit that you like the attention of these "gods" and would flee a sinking ship like rats to join them. The moment they get bored of you, you swim back and say "We Asian girls always supported you Asian men! You guys rock!" while scanning around for better oppertunities.Do you honestly blame angry Asian guys? Or should you be blaming the situation that created them?
Look guys, you want to lessen racism in this country or not? If you do, the only way you can do it is make whites a minority in this country. The white men are doing it by procreating with Asian women including making very big contribution to this end by getting mail order brides from abroad. Find yourselves wives in Asian countries, and we will hasten the day when whites become a minority in this country and racism will diminish.
RP, I can understand your passion on the issue, but it does seem a bit harsh. I agree with your closing points on the "yellow fever" thing and addressing the "situation" that created this problem. But I believe the 'situation' is much deeper than 'asian women not wanting to date asina men'.I think one key issue is how it became accepted in the Asian American community that 'white' is the most desireable thing to 'be'. While I acknowledge the dominance of whites in this society, that doesn't make me want to 'be' white. It makes me want to work more aggressively to shift the balance of power and diminish that dominance. Asians do not seem to have embraced that idea or ethos as firmly as other minorities in the US. Blacks in the US are almost defined by their oppositional stance to whites. As a general rule, blacks do not seem to 'want ' to be 'white'. "Acceptance" (or maybe better said as 'absorbtion') is not the prime objective - acknowledgement and respect seem to be the primary motivators. Sometimes the tactics employed on the ground' are not the best, but they do seek to maintain their identity - conflicted as that may be. RP you hit upon this with respect to (wrt) loyalty and black women. By the way, I disagree with the use of the term 'assimilated' wrt african americans. African americans are as american as any white american and more american than many white americans. Their presence here goes back as far as any and shaped this nation.Asian Americans seem to operate differently. Many Asian Americans seem to want to 'be' white - or more accurately 'accepted' by whites in a "See! We are just like you!" manner, but not one that looks to place whites on an even level with all others, but to move themselves up to a pedestal similar to how they see whites. (Why do I speak in the 3rd person? Because I do not subscribe to this philosophy). It is reflected in the words we use - when an asian says 'American' he or she typically means 'WHITE American'. So in the quest to assimilate, to be a part of the norm - much more an objective of those with a living memory of 'some other place' either directly or from family - and to the extent that one allows only whites to be part of that 'norm' you remove or distance yourself from things that prevent your 'normalization' - i.e. Asian American men and those damn 'funny' names. Women - always seen as less threatening than men - have had greater 'mobility' in this 'dissolving in' process due to stereotypes and some cultural habits have tended to reinforce some of those stereotypes.Sakamoto, I think your theroy falls short. The basis of racism is NOT in the absolutes of skin color, it is in the presupposition of inherent superiorty of one group over another due to a physical characteristic that has nothing to do with intelligence, character or any other real metric of a human being's potential. Subsequently the 'mixing' of whites with others (Asians or more) won't reduce whites to minority status and thus end racism, it will simply shift the complexion of whites and create a new 'white' people who hopefully will do a better job of preparing sushi. But they'll be just as 'white' in all its negative sense.So what about the other 30 - 35% of the population? The NOT white people. Don't they count? What American music do you listen to that does not beg, borrow or outright steal from black american music forms? Have you ever eaten an egg roll? Not in China you haven't. Had fajitas? Not in Mexico you haven't. So the fingerprints of minorities are all over the place.Bitter diatribes against this 'not dating asian men' thing probably won't work to reverse that (why would you want to go somewhere and get 'yelled' at?). But if there is a committed effort even an individual basis to shift our thinking and how we present information, there is a chance to shift the outcome. I strongly suggest that the first shift come in language. Fully recognizing the impact of 'hyphenated' Americanism (pun intended) I, in many instances (after a political cost/benefit analysis) have stopped using a hyphenated designation of myself. I am an American. That's it. No more or less than Baxter Billingsly III of the Hamptons or Vishnu Patel of Edison, NJ, Yumi Tanaka of Portland or Jamaal Johnson of Chicago.But most importantly, don't continue walking into the mental trap that equates 'American' with 'white' - there is no such cultural equation and when you make such a currency exchange you will cheat yourself.White people are not all powerful; nor are they all evil. If someone has a fetish there is probably someone else who supports that fetish (sadists can't prosper without masochists). If you have such a fetish recognize it and acknowledge it, don't blame somebody else for 'pushing' you into your fetish. So asian women, if your 'fetish' is 'common objectives' and sense of humor and similar outlook, then accept that those traits come in many colors INCLUDING Asian men AND they are also missiing in many colors INCLUDING white men. Don't ASSUME them to be specific to one group. You don't like it when assumptions are made about you (submissive, docile, easy) - neither do others. And DON'T evaluate guys based on their paycheck capacity and act snotty - it makes you look cheap and only serves to reinforce negative stereotypes. Call your sisters out on it.Asian men go get that 'other' girl who is standing at the club waitign hoping to dance. She might be pleasantly surprised by your interest and demonstratively appreciative (nudge, nudge, wink, wink).Also don't be a chauvinistic dickhead - NOBODY wants that. You end up p***y-less. And I'm not talking about pocket change here.
"Subsequently the 'mixing' of whites with others (Asians or more) won't reduce whites to minority status and thus end racism, it will simply shift the complexion of whites and create a new 'white' people who hopefully will do a better job of preparing sushi. But they'll be just as 'white' in all its negative sense."No. You dont understand what I said. Never advocated mixing with whites. I suggested going to Asia to bring Asian brides and compete with the whites for these Asian brides. If four million African American women married four million men from Africa or the Caribbean instead of complaining about black men being taken by white women or being in prison, and if the one and a half million Asian American men marry Asian women from Asia, that means nearly six million more non- white citizens (if they hopefully become one)in this country..which means whites will become a minority sooner rather than later and minorities will have less power as we have already seen.
Thaks for clarifying Sakamoto. YOur approach is to simply increase the numbers of 'minorities' until we are no longer minorities. Sort of an 'immigrate' our way out of the position of disadvantage. This would have some logistical challenges (getting to 'there' to bring mates back to 'here' but the succcess of the plan does depend upon the various minority groups recognizing that their fates or prospects are linked. They would have to work together in order to have impact. Not a bad outcome.
hahhaha, awesome thread.
Oh, please.That idea is just beyond stupid and makes no sense at all.Now, back to reality. I'll be honest with you, I used to grumble about this problem. Actually, I still do from time to time but it's rare. Why? I'll tell you in a minute.I've noticed that Asian men are pretty much on their own and Asian women don't give a flying shit about us. I want to establish that first.I've accepted this. Everywhere I go, Asian women blame Asian men for the problem. As you can see from the other female posters in this thread, it's true. It's either all our fault or they tend to ignore it completely because, frankly, it doesn't affect or hurt them. Not only is it our fault, we have to do more on our end while they don't have to do squat by meeting us halfway.That reminds me of the Creedence Clearwater Revival song "Senator's Son" when they "ask how much should we give" and they reply "more, more, more." Anyway, I digress.The personal is political, folks. Let's not beat around the bush; until someone else is losing, a particular subject becomes more or less important depending on who's being affected the most.Think it's ok to racially profile Arabs on airplanes? Whites sure do. Why? It's because their own rights aren't being violated.Think it's ok for blacks to get followed around in the store? Asians sure do. Why? It's because they're not the ones being stereotyped as criminals.So, it's fine to say that Asian women don't care. Why should they? They're not losing out on the exchange. Had it been the opposite situation where Asian men were being chased left and right by white women and everyone ignored Asian women because they're ugly, you'd hear alot of complaining from Asian women and Asian men would be the ones saying "you don't own me."Asian women need to shut up. Honestly. You'd do all the kicking and screaming if you were the ones losing and you know I'm 100% true. Get off your high horse because you know it's true.Asian guys, you can't blame them. They hold all the cards while you hold a lousy hand. The only thing I suggest you do is fold, pick yourself up, and move to another table.I'm being serious. Talking to Asian women about this topic because it's like talking to a brick wall. Hell, I've met many white, Latin, and black women that are so responsive and supportive to how Asian men are heartbroken over this issue.Why repay your best efforts to a demographic that could give a shit whether or not you have a happy life? I wouldn't. Why would I? I give support and happiness to someone that gave or will return it to me.This is why I encourage Asian men to date outside their race. This is where my personal story comes into play. I used to be angry about it until I bumped into a gay white friend of mine that took care of me. I mean, he and his friends told me the in's and out's on what to do and how to act. In fact, they had many straight female friends. Picture me as a guy being helped by the cast of Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. They dressed me up, helped me with social graces, and cleaned up my flat.It wasn't 2 weeks later when women of all colors started picking up on this and taking notice.My honest question is this: If I have to work hard to appeal to women of all races, why would I date an Asian woman if I can date a non-Asian one? You give us shit and then when you see we get attention from non-Asian women, you suddenly think that we're acceptable now?Suffice to say, I've convinced most of my young male relatives to chew up this mentality. I'm not afraid to admit that it's the shallow approach but maybe it's the only way for Asian women to stop taking us for granted. Asian men need to show them we're not going to wait around for them forever as a second class date.Much to the anger of Asian women who hear me saying this, I've noticed that if every Asian guy does his part to spread the message, maybe Asian women will learn in a few years that Asian men can be better than any other type of men out there but they were too busy dicking around and taking us for granted.3 of my cousins are all very good looking Asian guys. 2 are with white women and another is with a Latina. I have many white female friends that said they didn't date Asian guys not because they didn't like them but because they felt Asian guys didn't find them attractive since they're too busy chasing Asian girls.I replied that this isn't the case but don't think white girls are interested in them. So, I told these white girls to start opening flirting with Asian guys. Low and behold, 2 of them are dating Korean guys.In short, Asian guys....look elsewhere. We've never been seriously wanted and that's the biggest turnoff ever.MOVE.ON.
"This would have some logistical challenges (getting to 'there' to bring mates back to 'here' but the succcess of the plan does depend upon the various minority groups recognizing that their fates or prospects are linked."Compete with white men for mail order brides. One of the biggest problems is inter-Asian prejudice. For example, in Singapore, many Chinese man consider it below their status to marry someone from the Philippines, but the white man does not...this needs to change. Asian American men along with African American women have the power to change the country's demography quickly and reduce racism, and I am afraid many dont even know it. Instead they sit about the opposite sex of their race being taken by whites.
"look elsewhere. We've never been seriously wanted and that's the biggest turnoff ever."Look to the Philippines. Plenty of those women want to come to the US. Why restrict yourselves to Americans. Are Asian women so below status?
to Sakamoto and Date Out - what you are suggesting is what I proposed long ago in this thread. Thanks for the endorsement. The 'logistics' will have to be worked out, but I see nothing inherently wrong with Asian men "going where they are wanted" and thesame thing for Black women, although the Black male 'out marriage' rate is nowhere near the Asian women out marriage rate.There is the issue that in many instances, even those 'mail order brides' are still looking for white men.
"There is the issue that in many instances, even those 'mail order brides' are still looking for white men."Having lived in Singapore and seeing how the Chinese men treated the Filipinas, maid or otherwise, I can understand the feeling. The Filipina women have not been treated well by other Asians..so that may be part of the reason as to why they go for white men.
Well, I don't want to date Asian women from Asia because I'm an American and they won't understand my way of life and how we do things here.Are you running some mail order bride business or something? Get off it.I do agree with "Date Out" and Patty for the most part and believe that the whole interracial dating issue doesn't even register on the minds of most Asian women in America.In fact, they're still going out of their way to date white men because of "cool" it seems to portray how color doesn't matter in this day in age.This brings me to the topic that only stupid minorities believe in the white man's buzzwords of assimilation and colorblind.I was with some friends and the whole group was filled with Asian men and women to which one of the Asian women said that all the Asian women were in love with the token white guy.Give me a break. As if white guys are so special. Asian women, they think they're superior because you make them so.
Did you men know that Asian American women ages 18-24 have the highest rate of suicide in the US for that age group?
very educational thread!
Oh, sorry, I meant 15-24. I'm sure you all have read this, but here it is for reference:http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/05/16/asian.suicides/index.html
Yes, I'm aware.What has that got to do with anything about this topic? Are you going to go the route of "why are we worrying about this problem when we should be worrying about this instead?"
"Well, I don't want to date Asian women from Asia because I'm an American and they won't understand my way of life and how we do things here.Are you running some mail order bride business or something? Get off it."I wont get off it. Then stop complaining about white men taking Asian women."I do agree with "Date Out" and Patty for the most part and believe that the whole interracial dating issue doesn't even register on the minds of most Asian women in America.In fact, they're still going out of their way to date white men because of "cool" it seems to portray how color doesn't matter in this day in age."Just like you wont date Asian women from Asia it is their preference."This brings me to the topic that only stupid minorities believe in the white man's buzzwords of assimilation and colorblind."Just like you dont believe in dating Asian women from Asia."I was with some friends and the whole group was filled with Asian men and women to which one of the Asian women said that all the Asian women were in love with the token white guy.Give me a break. As if white guys are so special. Asian women, they think they're superior because you make them so."Just like you think you are superior and not compatible with Asians. You sow what you reap.
Hey Ken:Just like it is your preference not to date Asian women from Asia, it is our preference not to date Asian American men. Any questions?
Rebecca, actually I was quite aware. I trust you are not suggesting that Asian men are the cause of this? I suppose you could be, but then given that the out-dating/marriage issue has been going on for some time, it would seem that even that respite has not provided true relief. Maybe they are conflicted in terms of identity. It seems to me that that has to be a stressful issue for adoptees, and the overwhelming majority of adoptees are females.Sakamoto, thanks for pointing out a few things there...I might not have been as harsh, but Ken, you had a couple of non sequiters in there.I suppose this comes down to this for me; it is not so muich about passing judgement as about understanding why.Why so often given that other women of color do not do the same.Why only white men given the argument presented is 'colorblind love'.Why so strident ("I would never date an Asian man!")?And here is a 'how' - How is it that Asian women can grow up to be informed/transformed by life in the US to arrive at a more egalitarian 'place' in terms of gender relations but their brothers growing up in the same household don't get this same education\socialization?We have things here that just don't seem to fit.
Hey Julie -This is exactly what will happen. I have already spoke to enough pissed off Asian American men to understand this will have far greater social impact within the Asian American community.My brother is a good example. My brother is tall and athletic. He currently lives in NYC. He has told me Asian women are the worst there with their dissing of Asian men. He even tried to date some Asian women after growing up in an all white community and basically dated mostly white girls. Well, the last time I spoke to him he told me he has given up on Asian women with their bad attitudes and is currently dating a white girl.I do agree with some of the other Asian guys' point of view. You guys need to open your eyes and look to women from other races. There are a ton of black women who would love to date Asian men. How do I know this? Cause many of them told me so. I have dated Latinas and the first thing I heard from these women is they think Asian men only date Asian women and if they do date interracially, they only date white girls. This has to change. Asian men need to go out there and date women from other races.I say forget Asian women. They seem to be pretty happy with their dorky ugly white boyfriends/husbands, even the ones that look like they crawled out of sewers somewhere.
"I have dated Latinas and the first thing I heard from these women is they think Asian men only date Asian women and if they do date interracially, they only date white girls."At least one person, Ken, wants to date only Asian American women, not Asian women from other parts of the world. Look, you dont need mail order brides. Plenty of foreign students from Asia at US universities. Try dating them before the white man grabs them which I am sure they are waiting to do. Tons of attractive women from Japan, Korea and Singapore at US universities particularly in the west coast. Why do you bother with people like Julie Chen?
RobRice PattyCharcoal Colored Black TamilJack Knifeto all the guys listed above: i really enjoyed reading all your comments, and i'd like to read more of your opinions. i'd like to know if you guys are commenting anywhere else? if you are then please tell me where.thanks a lot
Sakomoto - I agree with you. I do want to clarify in my last post that FORGET SELL OUT BITCHES vs. all Asian women. Asian men should date Asian women who actually care about them.We need to develop better radar system to weed out those sell out bitches quickly. If I talk to an Asian women who is one of those, I would distant myself from that SOW immediately and not associate with these women at all. I tell my wife the same thing cause their presence is just a freaking insult to everything I believe in. When these bitches get into racial trouble, I hope the entire Asian American community turn their backs on these bitches so they can go cry to white men for help. Really, I hope the entire community disassociate with these women completely and let them go swim in the white men's world.If you are an Asian man and you run into one of these women, run as far from her as you can and recommend all of your friends do the same. If you are an Asian women who actually care about Asian American issues, run from these women too cause they are basically living insult to our identity and culture with their white worshiping ways.
Wow, there’s a whole host of implying but very little listening in this thread. This is primarily directed towards “Sakamoto” and “Julie Chen.”First, to Sakamoto, I don’t have any problems dating and marrying a woman from Asia. In fact, the main reason why I am primarily interested in Asian women is because of cultural reasons so it stands to reason why foreign Asian women would actually be more appealing to me than native born Asians who have a much higher chance of not carrying on their culture. While I’ve dated non-Asian women who were sensitive to these desires and cater to them, none of them really understood these cultural practices. This is why I’m also not interested in completely whitewashed Asian American girls as they can’t provide this for me and my future children either. Not like it matters as the ones that are the most whitewashed are always the ones that hate Asian men.I’m trying to strike a happy medium in an Asian American girl who isn’t whitewashed and understands our cultural practices but also understands American mannerisms and traditions. In essence, I’m trying to find a girl that can blend both areas. It’s my personality and I wish to find someone who has the same.Foreign women can’t provide that. I’m not shutting them down because of racial or superiority reasons like you claim. I’ll give you a personal example. I was once posted at a temporary position by my firm in Shanghai and I fast became friends with an absolutely stunning woman there. She was perfect in every way except some of her mannerisms were uniquly Asian that I couldn’t wrap my head around. For example, we were very obviously attracted to each other, personality and physically, but she harbored that inferiority complex where Asian women are treated secondary to men. She wouldn’t look me in the eye, wouldn’t argue with me (I actually tested her by saying something that was blatantly incorrect), would walk behind me rather than by my side, or would insist she do all the cooking and cleaning while also holding a full time job. I want a girl that can stick up for herself. That’s just one of many reasons why our pairing would be awkward. While many men would love a woman like this, I don’t. A marriage should be about equals and she didn’t treat herself as one. I’ve met several beautiful native Korean girls who followed this example as well.So, no, it’s not about me feeling superior to them.Second, to Julie Chen, that’s your choice. However, I wish society would stop sugarcoating the word “prejudice” by using the word “preference.” It seems that people only use that word because they’re too much of a chicken to declare an absolute answer. It’s as wishy-washy as “maybe, perhaps, I think, somewhat.” You’re a weak-minded simpleton who is afraid of declaring your intentions and choose to meander on the sidelines to see how the game plays out before you make a decision.In essence, you’re hoping that by using the word “preference” to cover up your racial prejudice against Asian men, it will buy you some brownie points when it comes to social interaction. That’s essentially what racial preference is. If you prefer a certain race, that means you have a prejudice against other races. Sorry, I’m not buying it and neither do Asian men or people in general, for that matter, who are willing to call bullshit.You’re just like many people who claim themselves agnostic for fear of declaring themselves atheist just in case God really does exist. If someone does call you on your bullshit racist selections, you can also backtrack and spout “Oh, I didn’t say all Asian men. I would date one if he was nice.” In your mind, if you flat out say you don’t date Asian men and society calls you on your racism, you can’t backtrack. Right now in North America, it’s ok to rail against Asian men so this is the approach you take.This is moot anyway because, as I said to Sakamoto, I don’t wish to date a foreign Asian woman because it’s based on personality which is equitable to compatibility. Yours, on the other hand, is based around racial prejudice, I mean, preference. You’re making it sound as simple and objective as choosing a pizza topping.
Ken, you had not clarified your reasons for not looking for Asian women as mates. Your concerns are valid but you should be willing to admit that it is not a foregone conclusion that ALL women raised in Asia would act in the way you described. That would be as erroneous as assuming that ALL Asian men are sexist, arrogant and assholic - which we know to not be the case.On another note, thank you for your candor with regard to the use of 'preference' in lieu of 'prejudice'. If a person would dismiss out-of-hand, any and all potential suitors due to an 'accident of birth' (being born an Asian, Latino or Black male for example) then that is a prejudice. A 'preference' might be for a mate in the legal profession for example - he or she can choose to be there or not - and you can choose to date him/her or not.Would you consider your selection criteria 'preferences' or 'prejudices'?
Eddy - you are right. Ken obviously does not have enough experience with women in Asia.It is lame to assume all women in Asia are certain way. If anything, there are PLENTY of strong Asian women in Asia. If you meet a white girl who is submissive (cause I have), does this mean all the women in the USA is that way? It is stupid to make those assumptions. Besides, there are some beautiful women in Asia that would put most girls here to shame as far as beauty and class.The problem with this country since the day we are born, we are conditioned to think "white is right" or "white is ideal" from books, films, movies, magazines, schools and everything in-between. Images of white standard of beauty is everything whether that's true or not. The same image is being spread to the rest of the world via Hollywood, the biggest white propaganda machine out there on earth. Hollywood would rather hire bunch of white foreign actors from UK or Australia than hire Asian Americans who are born and raised in the USA. Can their agenda be any more obvious? You don't need to go far to see what they are trying to do. Is it any surprise just about all the romantic lead roles are white men in Hollywood movies while most minority men are reduced to caricatures or sidekicks for white people's amusement? White people have created some kind of racial hierarchy to benefit them while at the same time, to put down the minority men in "their" place. Some of us have been brainwashed and conditioned since birth to believe this. Some of us who are mentally strong can see things for what it is and recognize it. Some of us with weaker mentality took the easy route out and submit to the white men. It is the easier path and with less resistance. Since white men have certain fetishes for Asian women due to various stereotypes, they have created images of Asian women being exotic sexual beings. People always say if you can't change the environment, but you can always change yourself and the way you are thinking. Unfortunately, some of us would rather buy into the images white media has been selling for years. As a result, some Asians in turn find it easier to stereotype other Asians (especially Asian men) in a negative way since white men have been doing to many years. After all, if you align with the majority they surely will accept you and welcome you into their little klan right? Well, I am pretty sure that's how some of these Asian women think. I just wish they could out and say it outright vs. these stupid excuses like "oh he is like my brother" or "it is my preference" or "I don't know why I prefer white and nothing else, cause I just do" or some other crap.Women of all races in this country have been conditioned to think white men as the ideal mate due to all reasons I already covered. They also been conditioned to believe all Asian men are not ideal due to various stereotypes with most of them being negative. I suspect most of these white-washed sellout Asian girls never even dated an Asian guy in their entire life. Because these girls look Asian, people think they are expert on Asian men when in reality they have no clue and the only men they probably have experiences with are their fathers and brothers. My personal experience is once a girl dated an Asian men, they always are far more open to the next Asian guy. Since now, they have been conditioned to consider Asian men as potential mates vs. someone who would never be in interested in them and only in Asian women. I have been girl's first Asian experience quite a few times and it always been that way. Some of my EXs are always more open to date other Asian men after me. Before that, most of them never thought of dating an Asian guy until I asked them out. Since media and everything in this country will never give people the image of an Asian man as just a man like anyone else, it really is up to individual man to be proactive and create his own social image. Do Asian men (or most minority men for that matter) have it harder because white media stacked everything against us, yeah you bet but it can also be overcome if you work at it.
The reason why I mentioned the high rates of depression and suicide among young Asian American women is not to say that men are to blame (aside from the average ways that a patriarchy oppresses women), but that maybe some women are preoccupied with things other than satisfying your sense of manliness.Don't get me wrong. The masculinity of Asian American men is an important issue. Media portrayals are horrible, racist, etc. And sure, there are women whose dating practices are whack. But what really chafes my hide are the broad, daresay stereotyping, truly hateful comments bandied about regarding a very large group of people (Asian American women), that pretend to have the handle on someone else's subjectivity, to have the hearts and minds of women dialed.Could high rates of depression mean that they don't all "think that they're superior" (to quote Ken)? MAYBE, just maybe, women don't like seeing fellow women called "bitches" (to quote AV). Or seeing that their entire ethnic gender category somehow "started it" (Rice Patty), or that our perceptions are "socially ignorant" (Ken), or that we need to just "shut up" (Date out).Or maybe women are just thinking about other things. Maybe they're having a hard time getting dates, period--much less having the luxury to chose.Or, if you want to talk about media representation here, maybe they think their bodies are ugly because they don't wear a D-cup or look like crap in a bikini. Well, you don't even have to go as far as media representation, but the guy you've heard crowing over having 'banged on some chick' or scoring the girl with big tits. That's a real bummer to have to hear, and you don't even have to go to the proverbial locker room to hear it.Maybe they're just bummed out about living up to their parents high expectations and the men in our society getting treated better. (As Ed points out, adoptees are overwhelmingly girls--the implication being that they're more disposable.)Who can say, really, what the many saddened young women are thinking, or in what weird ways they may or may not rebel against the social constraints, or be unable to cope and decide they're better off dead.But perhaps we can leave room for the notion that making men feel like men's men is not at the top of a woman's list.On another note,Says Rob: "Demoralization. I've frequently heard from Asian women who are dating white men that Asian men don't hit or flirt with them; that they're too shy. Be that as it may, it's true. ... To add to that, there are many Asian men who are shy but have also become extremely demoralized by this fact in seeing so many Asian women with non-Asian men. They start to feel as if Asian women have abandoned them, don't love them, or that Asian women don't find them attractive."Which came first, the chicken or the egg? If someone isn't flirted with, the assumption goes that they aren't desired. Additionally, being the male-centric society that it is, women aren't 'supposed' to be the ones who make the first move.In not being flirted with by Asian American men, I've always just assumed it was because they didn't find me desirable. And empirically I don't think that's an out of line conclusion. Seriously, if I were to second guess that and think to myself, "That guy must not be flirting with me not because they don't like me, but because they're shy," do you know what kind of idiot I would be?
Oh, I fully acknowledge that not all Asian women act like that. It was just one example I chose to give you. There are many other reasons too; many of them are on my side such as being too lazy to learn the language.I do have to echo what you guys are saying, as sad as it is for me to say, I know many great Asian American guys that "fled" America to Asia in order to feel loved and actually wanted. Three are in Taiwan and one is in Korea.From what an American born Asian female friend said to me, Asian American guys are the hottest thing in Asia because they're foreign enough to be "exotic" but familiar enough to be "safe." My experiences reflect what she's been saying so I would actually encourage many Asian American men to go back to Asia since Asian American women seem to thumb their noses at us because they're desired by whites.Truth be told, this woman's personality and beauty more than makes up for the differences I was talking about. If I was posted in Shanghai, the pleasure would be all mine if she would marry me.That being said, I do have to add that being "colorblind" has allowed white society to basically tell minorities to forsake their own demographic to be absorb American, I mean, white values.
AV: A Brilliant piece that even a child can understand. I could not have said it better. However, I have some comments."Eddy - you are right. Ken obviously does not have enough experience with women in Asia."He should try the Chinese women in Singapore, as westernized as it gets. Perhaps more westernized than the American born Asians although some have the same white bias.."It is lame to assume all women in Asia are certain way. If anything, there are PLENTY of strong Asian women in Asia. If you meet a white girl who is submissive (cause I have), does this mean all the women in the USA is that way? It is stupid to make those assumptions. Besides, there are some beautiful women in Asia that would put most girls here to shame as far as beauty and class."Indeed!!"The problem with this country since the day we are born, we are conditioned to think "white is right" or "white is ideal" from books, films, movies, magazines, schools and everything in-between. Images of white standard of beauty is everything whether that's true or not. The same image is being spread to the rest of the world via Hollywood, the biggest white propaganda machine out there on earth. Hollywood would rather hire bunch of white foreign actors from UK or Australia than hire Asian Americans who are born and raised in the USA. Can their agenda be any more obvious?"I have responded to this before in the Aishwarya Rai blog. But here it is once again. "May be if the Indian female actors continue using skin whiteners, it may just fool them enough to get them into Hollywood..http://www.littleindia.com/news/134/ARTICLE/1828/2007-08-18.htmlthe exceptions being Neha Dupia, Preity Zinta and the Kapoor Sisters. Even the racist Rimi Sen is not white enough..perhaps she can get her director Mr. Shetty to whiten her skin enough and make her pretty enough to get her into Hollywood. Right now she is a tad too dark and ugly for Hollywood.Hollywood is mostly interested in white people or white looking people. Every year approximately 5,000-7,000 H1Bs are allocated to white actors from UK and Australia and some from Canada. Yet no one hears the racist anti-immigration groups such as FAIR and CIS complain about them displacing Americans white or otherwise. In particular Asian Americans have very few opportunities in Hollywood, and yet they import white foreigners with accents and dub the American accent to make them look American eg. Poppy Montgomerry of Without a Trace who is from Australia and Melaney Linskey of Two and a Half Men who is from New Zealand. Unemployment among aspiring American actors is very high. I found at least four attractive women all of them white, living on the streets of Hollywood looking for a break and being chased away by business owners. I dont see many homeless IT people. Yet, to listen to these racist anti-immigration groups, it would seem as though the American IT people are living on the streets due to cheaper (not bright according to these groups, but cheaper professionals from India and China. Racism, pure and simple."Also look at this worship of white women by Indian actors of Bollywood. If you want to know what is said, please ask any Indian who speaks Hindi...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk5VmfRkDGYOne thing is strange though. Although AF/WM pairings are more common, the most common pairings I see on TV is the AF/BM pairing. Can you tell me why? Because such a pairing is more acceptable to racist white women who are all over this country, but particularly in the South?I think if the Asian men look for Asian women from abroad and African American women look for black women from abroad, that would be six million new immigrants not subject to quotas and would hasten the day when whites become a minority in this country. Do the minorities want to allevaiate the racism problem in this country...of course we will never solve it. Simple. Make whites a minority in this country.
CCB Tamil, I read thru some of that Rai thread and there was interesting commentary. I thought that some of it might be germane to this thread especially the "Little India" piece that you've linked. I think that key in this is something that AV pointed to - the 'idealized' view of white held by too many BUT NOT ALL minorities in this country. I noted earlier that that the African American community does not seem to be quite as 'enamored' with white America. This sometime results in bad decisions but the Black cultural 'vine' seems to be immune to trampling or complete homogenization despite numerous attempts. Asian Americans seem much more intent on or susceptible to being homogenized into white America to the point of lossing sense of self. One possible problem is that the concept of "Asian American" is a false construct in that there is no homogeneous 'Asia' so there can be no consistent 'Asian American' perspective. Each group, Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese, Indian, Sri Lankan, etc comes to the "Asian" table with their own perceptions fueled by the circumstances of their arrival and the intergroup issues that occurred both here and in the 'old country'. Hence when immersed in the majority group there is no strong cultural anchor to hold onto and, save for language, adrift we go. I think that the language 'island' is a strong part of the glue that held the Chinese American community together despite their lengthy stay here - that coupled with the timing of their arrival when legal racism worked to wall them out of the larger society similar to that done to Blacks.Maybe this plays into the both the gender discord (no anchor in self means little appreciation for continuing that group 'self') AND the suicide rates of young Asian American women (remember the adoptees issue?). Would it help resolve this (not that it will happen here, but we could be "a butterfly's wings") if there was a more concrete definition of "Asian American" culture? One where we could more accurately separate real cultural underpinnings from community responses to 'conditions' or context? Would the development of same require some abandonment or reshaping of familial customs that came from 'countries of origin' but do have currency across borders albeit with different names? Much like African Americans created a culture out of the CuisineArt mash-up that slavery forced them into.[They were denied information about family/tribe, access to fellow 'countrymen' and customs and even prohibited from speaking their native tongues - mixing 'tribes' created a 'tower of babel' such that english was the only lingua franca they could use and thus reduced their ability to communicate without whites understanding what was being said. In certain respects, the same thing is done now to keep minority groups from recognizing the similarity of their plight - "model minorities" vs. "affirmative action".]This 'mash-up' for Blacks has had its negatives - a lack of historical self-esteem which maybe responsible for the (apparent) tolerance of some negative behaviours as 'oppositional' to white culture, but also its positives, a greater perceived sense of loyalty to the group. But even Blacks have had those who would 'pass' if the opportunity presented itself. That rarely happens now out of (I'm guessing) a 'fear' of being disowned by the group.Rebecca, I do recognize the implied message in the imbalance between girls in adoption and boys ('males' hold greater cultural value) but this is not just an Asian thing; it is bad habit that is held pretty much worldwide. Based on your posts, I would assume that your mother did not raise you to accept the patriarchy model as a foregone conclusion and I would presume that your father at a minimum did not object to her approach - Asian Dads want their daughters to be great too! If that is true (and I assume it is) did they or would they have raised your brother differently? Why? How? Also, I would hope that men, including Asian men, are not depending upon women, including Asian women, to bestow upon them their sense of 'manliness'. That would make them a hostage to an outside force - remember Samson and Delilah. Not good. But is it good to be appreciated and made to feel attractive - and that's true for everyone.And on a lighter note, if I do get a chance I will certainly flirt with you, but I am a little confused as to how I might go about it without drifting into patriarchal bits of machismo which I am sure would be spurned.By the way, I am sure that's a nice outfit you have on today.And much more than a mouthful goes to waste I always say! ;-)
Anyone else think that as soon as media representation of Asian men increase positively, the disparity will go down.
Charcoal Colored Black Tamil - Thank you for sharing the article regarding South Asian Americans. It is pretty sad every minority group has to go through this. Whatever happened to be happy with who you are?I think the quickest way to do this is to take over Hollywood and finance movies that actually portrait Asians as regular humans. You know, give roles to Asians or Asian Americans the very same roles white actors get regularly now. I still remember the feeling when I was younger that every time an Asian person shows up on the big screen, I had this nauseating feeling and hoped secretly that the image won't be so bad. Let's face it, Asians are on TV basically so white people can have someone to laugh at or hate. I just wish all the Asian Americans would know the truth and unite to confront these problems vs. buying into white people stereotypes of Asians and confirm their stereotypes. Yes, I do believe many white-washed Asians believe all the same white stereotypes of Asians themselves deep down.I hope the next Asian Billionaire would invest in some money and develop a movie industry that has appeal to the worldwide market and not have only white actors in lead roles.
AV:As long as I know Sony is Japanese. Their coming to Hollywood has not created too many roles for Asian Americans. The Amritharaj brothers of Indian Tennis fame are producers. They are as black as I am and yes they are Tamils. Guess what, I dont see them recruiting Indian Americans or Asian Americans. I think he may have offered a role to some Indian actors, but I am not sure. Then there is Shyamlan, a top producer. But most of his actors are whites including foreign born whites.http://movie.consumerhelpweb.com/people/s/shyamalan.htmI think the role played by Poppy Montgomerry in Without a Trace can be played by any Asian American female. CBS had a good looking African American woman in the Ghost Whisperers, but despite the success of the series during the first season they phased the African American actor out and replace her with a fat white.
If you want to see Asian Americans in media, go make the media yourself! And if you don't have the talent for it, then give money to people who do. Give money to the the Center For Asian American Media in SF or Visual Communications in LA who give grants to filmmakers. Give it to Hyphen, who is publishing new writers and photographers. Give it to the East West Players and other Asian American theatre companies who are nurturing actors. If there's a movie by an Asian American filmmaker opening in your town with Asian American actors in it, go see it. Buy tickets til it sells out. Money talks and people need to know there's a market for Asian Americans in media. There was a survey I remember reading that said Asian Americans who had money tended to give it to the same places that white people did, like the ballet. Basically, they were still chasing the white dream and trying to show they had arrived. They hardly gave any money to Asian American organizations. Sad, sad sad. We could learn a thing or two from the Jewish community and be more supportive of media and the arts coming from our own communities. Anyone who doubts the importance of media need only to read the debate raging on this post.
Anon -For me I already do that. However, I do have issues with other Asian Americans who continue to make films that contribute to the existing stereotypes.If we have to wait until white men to give us a break in the media, we might be all dead by then. Like I said before, you can't control the world but you certainly can control yourself. If you see films where there are no minorities or cast Asians negatively, don't go see it.Charcoal - Sony might be owned by Japanese, but I am pretty sure it is still being run by American executives. Also, asking a Japanese company to understand struggles of Asian Americans might be a reach even though we are both Asian. I don't know much about how Sony run their production company so I have to do more research before commenting.That being said, there is no excuse being white washed forever and continue to play into white men's hands and be their good little Asian exotic doll.
I think it's a very true concept that as soon as media changes it's portrayals of Asian men ALONG with Asian America being proud of itself rather than being the insecure crap-fest it is now, I can almost bet the house that the amount of Asian women married or dating Asian men will increase tenfold.The proof is in the pudding when I see these articles on IMDB about Asian actors and how women in general never thought of Asian men in "that" way until now.Anyways, we should get back on topic...
Great points all - a multi-faceted debate for sure with many viewpoints.One observation: Sexual attractiveness is completely subjective and may be hard-wired at some level. So live and let live.I've seen enough AF and CM couples in the Bay Area to confirm that this is something real, and not imagined.Also enough homely partners in these combos to suggest that each may be acting upon some fantasized version of the other - sexy AF ("Any Asian will do!") or dominant CM ("Social Acceptance at last!"), where neither may be that in reality, but rather the closest psychological "hook" to fulfill his/her need.So Live and Let Live!